whats the max u have won in one casino before being banned?
- Thread starter beyondbj
- Start date
So split 9's against a 4, hit soft 18 v 10! :grin:
Because their heads would explode. Don't overlook the fact that surveillance personnel have other duties and only get cursory training on what to look for whereas AP's do this for a living and need every bit of an edge to survive. Bet correlation to the count and a few basic index plays are all that is taught in those crash course counter catcher courses. I would guess that all casinos use bj survey prior to a backoff unless they employ/outsource a counter who has gone over to the dark side or are really foolish and pull the trigger too early without making an informed decision.
Aside from 16 & 15 vs 10 and insurance I doubt most casino employees could spot an index play if they tried. We just get paranoid about index plays because they seem so obvious but ploppys make those same plays all the time.
Aside from 16 & 15 vs 10 and insurance I doubt most casino employees could spot an index play if they tried. We just get paranoid about index plays because they seem so obvious but ploppys make those same plays all the time.
HockeXpert is correct, Surveillance personnel have meny other duties than just watching the monitors and counnting people down all day. In fact they do table disputes (reviews), cage disputes, watching money movement and count teams (counting the money) watching employees, etc.
Another sad part about surveillance is, in the old days they paid for talent. The more about counting, cheating and surveillance you knew, the more you got paid. Not so anymore, infact they would rather promote some $9.00 an hour security guard to surveillance, give him a book like blackbelt/blackjack and stick him in the room. no knowledge of the games, ratios, odds, etc. and little knowledge of game protection and evaluation of play.
I have known many in surveillance that were un knowledgeable and have labled people as counters that were not and they would be getting cheated and didn't even know it. Additionally Some surveillance people rely too much on facial recognition, trying to match people up with the Griffin books, Sin, or using the facial recognition software (which didnt work well when it came out) but the only problem is you have to have a natual knack for faces to do this, most people do not, leaving the end result in tagging people who are not who they thought.
Just some ramblings.....
Another sad part about surveillance is, in the old days they paid for talent. The more about counting, cheating and surveillance you knew, the more you got paid. Not so anymore, infact they would rather promote some $9.00 an hour security guard to surveillance, give him a book like blackbelt/blackjack and stick him in the room. no knowledge of the games, ratios, odds, etc. and little knowledge of game protection and evaluation of play.
I have known many in surveillance that were un knowledgeable and have labled people as counters that were not and they would be getting cheated and didn't even know it. Additionally Some surveillance people rely too much on facial recognition, trying to match people up with the Griffin books, Sin, or using the facial recognition software (which didnt work well when it came out) but the only problem is you have to have a natual knack for faces to do this, most people do not, leaving the end result in tagging people who are not who they thought.
Just some ramblings.....
Actually, I have a very good relationship with surveillance personnel all over the country and after Griffin I went on to be Director of surveillance at several stores. As for Bob Griffin and I, well lets just say we had our differences. I didn't agree on his policies concerning induction into the books and we went our seperate ways. Maybe you should read my introduction to Zengrifter and you'll have a better understanding. I am just answering questions here and giving facts to better help counters with their experience..
EXGM
EXGM
A reply to Flyingwind
First thing Surveillance will do is to evaluate the threat, What was the B/I and how much are they up, are they rat-holeing. How disciplined is the players BS, What is the chip progression, Are they moving with the count. They will take an ID shot for later in case the player leaves so they can print a photo. They will then count down the deck/shoe to evaluate the player.
In some cases this is all that is needed and they call down to the pit...then they are flat-bet, backed off, etc. in other cases a shift manager is required to go up to surveillance to concur with they're results (in some stores there is distrust of pit personnel with surveillance's knowledge).
In many cases the pit will call up and request an evaluation, the eval is conducted and relayed back to the pit and they make a determination on whether the counter is a strong enough threat to the house.
When it comes to team play, The BP lands and in many cases has hit several tables already with the same play, Table max on two or more spots, on this type of play the surveillance people are under the gun and have to review the entire shoe from shuffle to determined what the count was when the BP hit. Then try to identify who the counter(s) were. Documenting all that were on the table for future reference.
First thing Surveillance will do is to evaluate the threat, What was the B/I and how much are they up, are they rat-holeing. How disciplined is the players BS, What is the chip progression, Are they moving with the count. They will take an ID shot for later in case the player leaves so they can print a photo. They will then count down the deck/shoe to evaluate the player.
In some cases this is all that is needed and they call down to the pit...then they are flat-bet, backed off, etc. in other cases a shift manager is required to go up to surveillance to concur with they're results (in some stores there is distrust of pit personnel with surveillance's knowledge).
In many cases the pit will call up and request an evaluation, the eval is conducted and relayed back to the pit and they make a determination on whether the counter is a strong enough threat to the house.
When it comes to team play, The BP lands and in many cases has hit several tables already with the same play, Table max on two or more spots, on this type of play the surveillance people are under the gun and have to review the entire shoe from shuffle to determined what the count was when the BP hit. Then try to identify who the counter(s) were. Documenting all that were on the table for future reference.
A reply to craps master
Let me answer your question Craps Master, I will say this, I have not seen the movies or read the book that have jumped the M.I.T. team into superstardom. I am answering this on my experiences with them. M.I.T. was originally started at the college by a professor and his students, I know their names but believe it to be inappropriate to post them here.
They started a business/corporate like structure called "Stratigic Investments" (I actually obtained a copy of their handbook by greasing a front desk person at their hotel to get me into their room). Anyway when M.I.T. hit town, they were very good and had perfected team play to a science. They would hit with several groups at one time in one casino, This would overwhelm surveillance and pit personnel. Then they would hit like this all over town, using aliases, disguises in some cases. If it wasn't for some minor slip-ups on their part, it would have been harder to positively identify them.
But the one thing they would do and continue to do is bring in fresh faces. Also with Gaming everywhere, they can run smaller curcuits and not hit the same one for a while, this keeps them in action. As the M.I.T. group is very good, in fact excellent there have been many great teams both before and after them.
When it comes to backing off a losing player, I have only done this a few times, determining the player was a threat but hit a dry spell (it was better to get rid of them, instead of worrying about them later) but I have seen the Pit do this many times.
Let me answer your question Craps Master, I will say this, I have not seen the movies or read the book that have jumped the M.I.T. team into superstardom. I am answering this on my experiences with them. M.I.T. was originally started at the college by a professor and his students, I know their names but believe it to be inappropriate to post them here.
They started a business/corporate like structure called "Stratigic Investments" (I actually obtained a copy of their handbook by greasing a front desk person at their hotel to get me into their room). Anyway when M.I.T. hit town, they were very good and had perfected team play to a science. They would hit with several groups at one time in one casino, This would overwhelm surveillance and pit personnel. Then they would hit like this all over town, using aliases, disguises in some cases. If it wasn't for some minor slip-ups on their part, it would have been harder to positively identify them.
But the one thing they would do and continue to do is bring in fresh faces. Also with Gaming everywhere, they can run smaller curcuits and not hit the same one for a while, this keeps them in action. As the M.I.T. group is very good, in fact excellent there have been many great teams both before and after them.
When it comes to backing off a losing player, I have only done this a few times, determining the player was a threat but hit a dry spell (it was better to get rid of them, instead of worrying about them later) but I have seen the Pit do this many times.
I'm sorry exgriffinman but this post is so generic and just a broad swipe of the MIT actions that if I were to base your validity on this information alone I would not find your credentials valid. The info produced here is common knowledge to anyone who has read a book or saw a cable special on them. Now I'm not saying you are not who you say you are, but it strikes me odd that you would be here posting as you do. You need to prove nothing, and I do not mean this as a flame, but I have a good bit of unpublished knowledge of alot of the MIT team members and their exploits. Some you would have to know if you were part of the powers that be playing cat and mouse with them. If you were to post either publicly or in a pm something like that, I would have a tendency to believe at least you have some knowledge of the situation. Again, you do not need to prove anything, I just find it curious is all.
Let me make it clear, I do not mean post names, just certain well known unpublished exploits to those in the know, that really harm no one at this time.
Let me make it clear, I do not mean post names, just certain well known unpublished exploits to those in the know, that really harm no one at this time.
A reply to bojack 1
Bojack 1,
If you read crapmaster's question, I believed I answered it...In fact I could talk about the exploits of MIT, Hyland, Uston, and many other teams for hours (and given the limited space of a post, this would be difficult) and additionally as I have stated here before, I am a counter and have been for many years...I am posting to give fellow counters the insight and knowledge that I have attained.
I did not feel it was nessesary to go into great depth on the history and specific incidents with Crapmasters post, However I will say that if you have specific questions concerning MIT or and other subject concering Gaming...Please dont hesitate to ask
Bojack 1,
If you read crapmaster's question, I believed I answered it...In fact I could talk about the exploits of MIT, Hyland, Uston, and many other teams for hours (and given the limited space of a post, this would be difficult) and additionally as I have stated here before, I am a counter and have been for many years...I am posting to give fellow counters the insight and knowledge that I have attained.
I did not feel it was nessesary to go into great depth on the history and specific incidents with Crapmasters post, However I will say that if you have specific questions concerning MIT or and other subject concering Gaming...Please dont hesitate to ask
I didn't ask for hours worth of writing exploits of your experiences with the MIT team, just one that would not be of common knowledge. I will say that in regards to your reply to crapsmaster, that your information is not entirely accurate. Not sure if that is due to Griffin's perception of the facts vs the truth, or possibly its just what you heard. I will say I have no great admiration for Griffin, as they have pigeonholed AP's as cheaters for years. I have a copy of an old Griffin page with certain players on it I have associated with and the info it contains is a joke if not insulting. The fact you are a counter despite Griffin's ignorant approach to the game, is astounding. For all its fame connected with MIT and AP's in general, Griffin was fairly incompetent in doing its job in that concern. If you are indeed who you say you are, then you must admit at least in the well known cases of the MIT teams, it was by absolutely no skill on Griffin's part that high stakes team play was dicovered. Although its helpful to get a take on the Griffin agency's surveillence thoughts, they are usually, thankfully, very uninformed. Its usually not until after the fact that they will understand how it really works. I would rather get evasive tactic advice from a mouse that doesn't get caught, then from a cat who can't catch him. Until of course the mouse's partner turns into a rat.
Backing off the small stakes player
Ive never been banned at blackjack but I have been banned from throwing the dice in craps on several occasions. This wasnt because of what I won but how much I was causing other people to win.
Sadly I cannt make them sweat my blackjack action, to small a bankroll. I was backed off once many many years ago after 3 days about 8 hours per day without a losing session at the same casino in LV. I guess even a small bankroll can overstay its welcome. I had red chipped about $2500 in profit AND I WAS POSITIVE PROGRESSION BETTING.
Looking back on it Im not sure what they were thinking. Maybe it was because I was varying my decisions perfectly to the count as the indices required. Or maybe there were to many random correlations with my bet. I dont no, it really doesnt make sense but it happened.
Ive never been banned at blackjack but I have been banned from throwing the dice in craps on several occasions. This wasnt because of what I won but how much I was causing other people to win.
Sadly I cannt make them sweat my blackjack action, to small a bankroll. I was backed off once many many years ago after 3 days about 8 hours per day without a losing session at the same casino in LV. I guess even a small bankroll can overstay its welcome. I had red chipped about $2500 in profit AND I WAS POSITIVE PROGRESSION BETTING.
Looking back on it Im not sure what they were thinking. Maybe it was because I was varying my decisions perfectly to the count as the indices required. Or maybe there were to many random correlations with my bet. I dont no, it really doesnt make sense but it happened.