Which system is better?

[Automatic Monkey]

The .99 Betting Correlation of the HALVES COUNT cannot be beaten.

{-2,2,2,2,2,2,1,0,-1,-2}

I don't know if this count has ever been published but its BC is close to 1.

The problem is, a few other counts are close enough to 1 where it doesn't make a difference, and the PE and IC of this count is degraded to the point it underperforms RPC, Halves, and BRH-1. The three of these are so equal you cannot expect to see a difference in results over a lifetime of play.

 

[MAZ]

Okay, Flash, I'll give you that--most players will make too many mistakes for it to be a viable idea. Is it worth it for you to learn Halves now that you know Zen so well? I think that both of us agree that it is not. I was just trying to say that they should strive to learn something more advanced than Hi-Lo and I don't think "they should all" be limited to Level 2. Some of them may have the time, inclination and capability of learning a Level 3 count. I agree that their gain over your Level 2 will be puny but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try it at home. I think that all the newbies should strive towards every little extra edge that they can get.

BTW: I obviously love Halves and try to defend its "honor" whenever I can but I have recently discovered that "it's not the best." I discovered a system called "Thorpe Ultimate Count" (TUC) has a better BE. Griffin lists it in his chart but does not name it. Appearently, Thorpe must have invented it a long time ago and Grosjean mentions using it for one specific purpose. I practiced it for a couple hours and got down to a deck in 40 - 45 seconds. I have since abandoned the idea save if some specific situation arises where it might be a good idea. Grosjean suggests that it was useful when he was playing a Red Chip table with really crappy rules, low heat and a very small bet spread because of the low table maximum with a partner. One used TUC and one was using a system (not revealed) with a very high PE. The "PE guy" made the playing decisions for the both of them and the TUC counter made the betting decisions.

Listen dude, I wouldn't go around telling "newbies" what they should do or shouldn't do. After all, you're just a newbie to me so the term is pretty much relative. As far as striving for an edge, why bother with miniscule tiers of counting advantage when there is so many bigger advantages out there in the form of what you people call advanced techniques. Picking up a simple balanced count like Hi-Lo is perfect for the player who chooses to do more than just count. I don't use anything more than a level 1 count but I bet I play with more advantage then you or most others every time I step in a casino. On top of that I'm not a slave to the rules of each blackjack game like even a player using a "superior" level 3 count is. There is rarely ever a blackjack game in any casino that I can't find an advantage on. Even the dreaded 6:5 SD blackjack. Try counting your way through that one. Sure you may think someone using a level 1 count should learn more. Just like I think you should worry less about pennies gained proving your intellect with level 3 counts, and use common sense smarts for turning seemingly bad games into cash.

 

[takinfromindians97]

Listen dude, I wouldn't go around telling "newbies" what they should do or shouldn't do. After all, you're just a newbie to me so the term is pretty much relative. As far as striving for an edge, why bother with miniscule tiers of counting advantage when there is so many bigger advantages out there in the form of what you people call advanced techniques. Picking up a simple balanced count like Hi-Lo is perfect for the player who chooses to do more than just count. I don't use anything more than a level 1 count but I bet I play with more advantage then you or most others every time I step in a casino. On top of that I'm not a slave to the rules of each blackjack game like even a player using a "superior" level 3 count is. There is rarely ever a blackjack game in any casino that I can't find an advantage on. Even the dreaded 6:5 SD blackjack. Try counting your way through that one. Sure you may think someone using a level 1 count should learn more. Just like I think you should worry less about pennies gained proving your intellect with level 3 counts, and use common sense smarts for turning seemingly bad games into cash.

Maz seems to know his **** and i agree. Hi-lo is the best for shuffle tracking and sequencing. I think with its ease of use it frees you up to do other things that may be profitable and raise your +EV. A level 3 seems like overkill to me.

 

[Renzey]

I obviously love Halves and try to defend its "honor" whenever I can.

I double all the card tags of the Halves Count so that I don't actually count any half points. Thus, the 5 is +3 and the 9 is -1, etc. I suspect other Halves users do the same. I believe this is considerably easier than counting half points.

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

Listen dude, I wouldn't go around telling "newbies" what they should do or shouldn't do. After all, you're just a newbie to me so the term is pretty much relative. As far as striving for an edge, why bother with miniscule tiers of counting advantage when there is so many bigger advantages out there in the form of what you people call advanced techniques. Picking up a simple balanced count like Hi-Lo is perfect for the player who chooses to do more than just count. I don't use anything more than a level 1 count but I bet I play with more advantage then you or most others every time I step in a casino. On top of that I'm not a slave to the rules of each blackjack game like even a player using a "superior" level 3 count is. There is rarely ever a blackjack game in any casino that I can't find an advantage on. Even the dreaded 6:5 SD blackjack. Try counting your way through that one. Sure you may think someone using a level 1 count should learn more. Just like I think you should worry less about pennies gained proving your intellect with level 3 counts, and use common sense smarts for turning seemingly bad games into cash.

Maz, it's not about my superior system or superior intellect or SD or 8D or ST'g or CC'g. I like to squeeze every penny out of what I do. You think that's a waste of time. So be it. Apparently, you think that I'm a newbie and don't use common sense. So, I guess I am whatever you say I am?

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

Maz seems to know his **** and i agree. Hi-lo is the best for shuffle tracking and sequencing. I think with its ease of use it frees you up to do other things that may be profitable and raise your +EV. A level 3 seems like overkill to me.

I love overkill.

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

I double all the card tags of the Halves Count so that I don't actually count any half points. Thus, the 5 is +3 and the 9 is -1, etc. I suspect other Halves users do the same. I believe this is considerably easier than counting half points.

Wouldn't know--never doubled them or heard of another Halves user who does. You're the first. I don't see anything wrong with either method. I just preferred not to make adjustments to my indicies so I kept at doing pure havles with the tags.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Listen dude, I wouldn't go around telling "newbies" what they should do or shouldn't do. After all, you're just a newbie to me so the term is pretty much relative. As far as striving for an edge, why bother with miniscule tiers of counting advantage when there is so many bigger advantages out there in the form of what you people call advanced techniques. Picking up a simple balanced count like Hi-Lo is perfect for the player who chooses to do more than just count. I don't use anything more than a level 1 count but I bet I play with more advantage then you or most others every time I step in a casino. On top of that I'm not a slave to the rules of each blackjack game like even a player using a "superior" level 3 count is. There is rarely ever a blackjack game in any casino that I can't find an advantage on. Even the dreaded 6:5 SD blackjack. Try counting your way through that one. Sure you may think someone using a level 1 count should learn more. Just like I think you should worry less about pennies gained proving your intellect with level 3 counts, and use common sense smarts for turning seemingly bad games into cash.

This is a ridiculous argument. If you want to use a level 3 count, use it. If you want to use a level 1 count, use it. You will earn 5-10% more EV with higher level counts than with High-Low. That's all- nothing more and nothing less.

 

[jaredmt]

I double all the card tags of the Halves Count so that I don't actually count any half points. Thus, the 5 is +3 and the 9 is -1, etc. I suspect other Halves users do the same. I believe this is considerably easier than counting half points.

i've read/thought about that too but i decided to stick with decimals to make TC conversions easier. making that 2nd calculation would probably slow me down more, even though it is only a matter of dividing by 2. with all the distractions in the casino and things to concentrate on, i just like to eliminate any extra process that could be avoided.

counting decimals is just a matter of practice (like anything else) and you just make a few tweaks. like instead of "and one half" you can say a different 1-syllable word/sound in your head that you find easier and faster to use. anyways thats what i do, but theres obviously nothing wrong with doubling the values

 

[Aphy]

First thank you for all the suggestions.

Second I decide to try Zen, probably after a while I will try halves, but who knows.

Third which system has better PE, I was thinking play with a partner one for BE and other for PE.

 

[jack.jackson]

I double all the card tags of the Halves Count so that I don't actually count any half points. Thus, the 5 is +3 and the 9 is -1, etc. I suspect other Halves users do the same. I believe this is considerably easier than counting half points.

Hi Mr. Renzey. I would just like to add, that if you double your tags, you need to double your indices as well, right?

 

[MAZ]

Maz, it's not about my superior system or superior intellect or SD or 8D or ST'g or CC'g. I like to squeeze every penny out of what I do. You think that's a waste of time. So be it. Apparently, you think that I'm a newbie and don't use common sense. So, I guess I am whatever you say I am?

Listen bro, if its really about squeezing every penny out of what you do, thats where the problem lies in your thinking. You think pennies, you get pennies. More power to you on that one. You want to use a level 3 count, thats cool but you're missing the boat on how to really play the advantages offered in this game. What you call overkill I call barely being in the game. Get it. I can't be bothered with waiting for long term results or the extra few cents one counting system offers over another. To me going ga ga over complex counting systems is nothing more than wasted time that could be put into other methods where the advantage is gained in dollars not pennies, and the time to make it can be measured in hours, not with calenders.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Mine is The Biggest, It Drags The Ground and Causes Sparks!

If I drop it, it cracks cement!
Ok, having said that:joker::whip:

A higher level count given the right circumstances is just better period!
Now, it is a subjective choice if an individual thinks the extra effort is worthwhile or if the individual is capable of employing more complex systems.

The error argument:
Just about every count has built in error, the weaker counts have a higher built in error rate!
An example:
Halves is suppose to be superior to HI LO in counting 2,5,7,9. So apparently with HI LO everytime you see these cards you are making a error! HI LO is a great count but it has these built in errors!

Ability to do "other" things argument:
If you use a higher level count it makes those "other" things even better. Again, subjectively if you think the extra effort is worthwhile and you can perform the tasks. I am referring to other things that involve counting, not "other" things that do not involve counting. The other things that don't involve counting make which counting system you use irrelevant!

Not a Measurable Difference in one's lifetime argument:
If the long run is to far for a high level count then it is even farther for a lower level count or blackjack in general! Sorry, but if the NO is shorter for a higher level count that means the long run is shorter!

Higher count slows you down argument:
I am probably not as fast with a higher level count. However, I am faster then any dealer I have ever met! I will never come across a dealer faster then me because I control the speed of play!

If something improves your game by 2%; like a higher level count, and if you play every weekend you can take one weekend off a year thanks to the extra effort or you can pocket the extra EV. If you take the weekend off, perhaps that is the weekend you don't get 86'd:joker::whip:

When one looks at some of the long run numbers a 2% reduction can become a big deal!

I think it is amusing when anyone attacks someone who wants to work harder! The end of the Protestant work ethic. Of course if any of us is a professional gambler I guess that means they have no work ethic!:joker::whip:

 

[blackjack avenger]

Everyone Missed It?

For over two decades it has been repeatedly demonstrated that a three level system is a waste
of time and will do nothing more than generate a few extra errors and slow you down a bit.

Experts are unanimous on this issue.

That being said I use two-level counts exclusively and have done so for over 25 years.

For hand-held games I use Hi-Opt II
For shoe games I use the ZEN COUNT.

See "Blackbelt in Blackjack" by Arnold Snyder.

Easily found at any Barnes & Nobles or Borders.

Cheap as can be at half.com:

Here is a link where you can improve your game for under $8:

http://product.half.ebay.com/Blackbelt-in-Blackjack_W0QQprZ30782081QQtgZinfo

"Flash" states that higher level counts are not worth it, but then he double contradicts himself. He does somewhat realize this by stating "having said that". So I am not really trying to give him to hard a time!:joker::whip:

He uses 2 higher level counts. Apparently he must think higher level counts matter andddddd he uses 2 counts for different games!

He mentions errors? How about employing 2 counts?
Does he split his trips up based on hand held trips or shoe trips?

What about indices?
Does he try to employ 2 sets, error rate?
Does he group them? Making each individual count weaker and undercutting the reason for employing 2 counts?
What if he is in a casino that offers hand held and shoe? Is he nimble enough to move around based on conditions or is he slowed and error prone?

It would be interesting to see him count down decks going from one count to the other, playing hands and making strategy changes.

But, hey its his business, he must think the extra effort and potential for errors is worth it!:joker::whip:

 

[MAZ]

If I drop it, it cracks cement!
Ok, having said that:joker::whip:

A higher level count given the right circumstances is just better period!
Now, it is a subjective choice if an individual thinks the extra effort is worthwhile or if the individual is capable of employing more complex systems.

The error argument:
Just about every count has built in error, the weaker counts have a higher built in error rate!
An example:
Halves is suppose to be superior to HI LO in counting 2,5,7,9. So apparently with HI LO everytime you see these cards you are making a error! HI LO is a great count but it has these built in errors!

Ability to do "other" things argument:
If you use a higher level count it makes those "other" things even better. Again, subjectively if you think the extra effort is worthwhile and you can perform the tasks. I am referring to other things that involve counting, not "other" things that do not involve counting. The other things that don't involve counting make which counting system you use irrelevant!

Not a Measurable Difference in one's lifetime argument:
If the long run is to far for a high level count then it is even farther for a lower level count or blackjack in general! Sorry, but if the NO is shorter for a higher level count that means the long run is shorter!

Higher count slows you down argument:
I am probably not as fast with a higher level count. However, I am faster then any dealer I have ever met! I will never come across a dealer faster then me because I control the speed of play!

If something improves your game by 2%; like a higher level count, and if you play every weekend you can take one weekend off a year thanks to the extra effort or you can pocket the extra EV. If you take the weekend off, perhaps that is the weekend you don't get 86'd:joker::whip:

When one looks at some of the long run numbers a 2% reduction can become a big deal!

I think it is amusing when anyone attacks someone who wants to work harder! The end of the Protestant work ethic. Of course if any of us is a professional gambler I guess that means they have no work ethic!:joker::whip:

Alright sparky you aren't getting it even if you did make my point in your last novel you posted. The other things that don't involve counting that you mention is exactly along those lines. I have not said you shouldn't use a higher level count, I have said its not that important to most and to push it as it being the end all is pretty naive. If straight counting is your game, then do your thing dude. In my eyes though, if you put the time in to be proficient in higher levels of counting to gain as much advantage as you can, you are placing your energies in the wrong direction. Certain techniques may call for counting where a simple count will do, others call for no counting at all. All of which I speak of destroy the EV of any straight counting method. Regardless of what level you use. The thing is, I get what you're saying I just can't relate. Working hard is great but if money is what you're after your level 3 count moves you up to fry cook from strictly level 1 count dishwasher. I'd rather own the restaurant and let you guys fight it out about who works the weekends. You see in my world its that way son.

 

[Renzey]

Hi Mr. Renzey. I would just like to add, that if you double your tags, you need to double your indices as well, right?

Yes you do -- basically. If you regenerate your indices however, you'll find that some of them will now land on an odd number, rather than being exactly doubled. An example is doubling with 9 vs. 7 at +7 TC rather than being exactly doubled from +3 TC or +4 TC. This presumably has the effect of making that index number more accurate.

Also, don't forget about the fact that higher EV systems produce a lower ROR with the same bets. So you can increase your bets slightly to get back to the same ROR and end up raising your earn by a greater margin (ala SCORE) than just the net increase in EV. Still though, it all doesn't amount to a lot.

 

[sagefr0g]

Alright sparky you aren't getting it even if you did make my point in your last novel you posted. The other things that don't involve counting that you mention is exactly along those lines. I have not said you shouldn't use a higher level count, I have said its not that important to most and to push it as it being the end all is pretty naive. If straight counting is your game, then do your thing dude. In my eyes though, if you put the time in to be proficient in higher levels of counting to gain as much advantage as you can, you are placing your energies in the wrong direction. Certain techniques may call for counting where a simple count will do, others call for no counting at all. All of which I speak of destroy the EV of any straight counting method. Regardless of what level you use. The thing is, I get what you're saying I just can't relate. Working hard is great but if money is what you're after your level 3 count moves you up to fry cook from strictly level 1 count dishwasher. I'd rather own the restaurant and let you guys fight it out about who works the weekends. You see in my world its that way son.

this is in essence why i do the screwy things i do, even if i am wrong.
my problem is my sloppy crap is mainly allocated to orthodox counting advantage and not the juicy stuff Maz alludes too. maybe some-a-day.:joker::whip:

 

[blackjack avenger]

You Take This Stuff Way to Seriously!

Alright sparky you aren't getting it even if you did make my point in your last novel you posted. The other things that don't involve counting that you mention is exactly along those lines. I have not said you shouldn't use a higher level count, I have said its not that important to most and to push it as it being the end all is pretty naive. If straight counting is your game, then do your thing dude. In my eyes though, if you put the time in to be proficient in higher levels of counting to gain as much advantage as you can, you are placing your energies in the wrong direction. Certain techniques may call for counting where a simple count will do, others call for no counting at all. All of which I speak of destroy the EV of any straight counting method. Regardless of what level you use. The thing is, I get what you're saying I just can't relate. Working hard is great but if money is what you're after your level 3 count moves you up to fry cook from strictly level 1 count dishwasher. I'd rather own the restaurant and let you guys fight it out about who works the weekends. You see in my world its that way son.

Perhaps I can post a novel because I use a higher level count and have the extra time on my hands!:joker::whip:
I never said I was a straight counter. I try real hard not to make any assumptions.

I think we agree more then you realize.
I never said a higher level count is the be all, end all. The original question of this post asked about "counts". Then some comment that the higher level counts are only worth "pennies?" This is factually not true. It's a matter of opinion and ability on if the "dollars" in SCORE are worth it.

As I stated; Yes, other things have value, some of them great value. Some don't even need counting, some strong counting adds extra value.

To some a high level count is easy and can be done proficiently so there is nothing wrong with them doing so! I don't think many would turn down a 5% raise on a job even if it meant little or perhaps no real additional effort? Maybe as gamblers most of us are lazy slobs and want to get by with as little effort as possible. As I look around my room, a heavy sigh!:joker::whip:

The amount of effort we put into the game does have diminshing returns and is situational anyway. We could have the same discussion over ace side counts. The value, effort, situation yada yada!

I don't know if you are in this group. I wonder if those who criticize a stronger count ever used one or are capable. When I say higher level counts may be beyond some I do not mean it as an insult. There are those who run faster then I do. I am not offended.

Your restaurant owner analogy is interesting. Some of those other things are illegial. I will assume you do not mean those. However, some of the legal ones can be perceived as illegial and can cause one a lot of trouble. Did you know most restaurants fail?

Gee, dad I hope you don't get arrested with those "other" techniques. I don't know if I make enough money with my "straight" high level counting to bail you out! I actually have been straight my whole life but I have no idea what that has to do with anything!:joker::whip:

 

[sagefr0g]

.... Maybe as gamblers most of us are lazy slobs and want to get by with as little effort as possible. As I look around my room, a heavy sigh!:joker::whip:
...

lmao, vengeful one.
ever see detective monk on tv? i make him look normal.
not really but i have my moments lol.
just curious with your halve's count how do your anectodotal results stack up with your ev?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

"Flash" states that higher level counts are not worth it, but then he double contradicts himself. He does somewhat realize this by stating "having said that". So I am not really trying to give him to hard a time!:joker::whip:

He uses 2 higher level counts. Apparently he must think higher level counts matter andddddd he uses 2 counts for different games!

He mentions errors? How about employing 2 counts?
Does he split his trips up based on hand held trips or shoe trips?

What about indices?
Does he try to employ 2 sets, error rate?
Does he group them? Making each individual count weaker and undercutting the reason for employing 2 counts?
What if he is in a casino that offers hand held and shoe? Is he nimble enough to move around based on conditions or is he slowed and error prone?

It would be interesting to see him count down decks going from one count to the other, playing hands and making strategy changes.

But, hey its his business, he must think the extra effort and potential for errors is worth it!:joker::whip:

It is worth it, depending on what you are playing. There are 3 counts I use regularly and a 4th one I just wrote this week for a novelty game. I suppose you can use High-Low for anything, but if I'm going to take the time to learn a novelty game I'm going to use something more appropriate, because a novelty game isn't that much like blackjack mathematically.

Also I don't know how much single deck you play, but you cannot use the same tactics you would use in shoe blackjack. I tried that when I was a rookie and lasted about 5 minutes at the El Cortez. In the case of SD (and DD) the count is used differently than in a shoe game, and using Zen counts and ace neutral counts becomes worthwhile. So don't knock it until you've done the analysis and seen exactly what different systems earn for you.