I don't really think in units. I just bet as little as I think I can get away with when the house has the advantage and as much as I think I can get away with when I have the edge. At some stores this is min to max, which are the first two spreads I posted. And no these casinos aren't in New Jersey.
You're boldest bet spread and the results
- Thread starter FrankieT
- Start date
It all depends on what your accepted risk of ruin is. This varies a lot, especially when people have replenishable bankrolls. Run the numbers with CVCX and see for yourself.
But a bankroll of 1000-2000 units would be pretty reasonable as a minimum. For $10 units that's $10k-$20k. Pretty modest IMO. Pros without other income would make it much higher, both to have a larger unit and less RoR.
But a bankroll of 1000-2000 units would be pretty reasonable as a minimum. For $10 units that's $10k-$20k. Pretty modest IMO. Pros without other income would make it much higher, both to have a larger unit and less RoR.
How do you look in a mumu?
So you are saying that as little as 1000 units is just wonderful for slamming out as much as 300 units for one round (bringing back the idea of that multiple split/double scenario with the huge spread max bet out there)? This is one of the things I was trying to point out. We are talking to the tune of about a 5000 unit minimum to do those sorts of max bets.
There are no pros that are going to heed your comments because they know better... but to imply this is feasible to the general public is wrong. One or two bad shoes and you are roasted, busted out (and also possibly escorted out to the sidewalk unless they can confirm you are doing a martingale or something and that your betting is not corresponding to the count).
Where to try this? A casino that you don't ever plan on coming back to anytime soon. Do this at every casino you go to and eventually you will run out of casinos and have to go to the only game left you can play at in Costa Rica and have to factor in additional travel expenses...
The bottom line is to have enough money backing you and to not try these antics at any casino you wish to be able to come back to unless... you are willing to do like me and dress up in drag to end up looking a lot like Joan Rivers...
So you are saying that as little as 1000 units is just wonderful for slamming out as much as 300 units for one round (bringing back the idea of that multiple split/double scenario with the huge spread max bet out there)? This is one of the things I was trying to point out. We are talking to the tune of about a 5000 unit minimum to do those sorts of max bets.
There are no pros that are going to heed your comments because they know better... but to imply this is feasible to the general public is wrong. One or two bad shoes and you are roasted, busted out (and also possibly escorted out to the sidewalk unless they can confirm you are doing a martingale or something and that your betting is not corresponding to the count).
Where to try this? A casino that you don't ever plan on coming back to anytime soon. Do this at every casino you go to and eventually you will run out of casinos and have to go to the only game left you can play at in Costa Rica and have to factor in additional travel expenses...
The bottom line is to have enough money backing you and to not try these antics at any casino you wish to be able to come back to unless... you are willing to do like me and dress up in drag to end up looking a lot like Joan Rivers...
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I tried to tell them Tarzan. To all you out there learning the game these huge spreads are what you want to avoid. That is why you should learn a very strong counting system. You can book properly sized wins without having a spread that is going to cost you money in the long run due to longevity problems. The stronger counting system also makes a lot more games playable so even though you are less likely to burn out the best games when you do the alternatives are more playable because a strong PE means a low standard deviation or in other words a much lower variance.
Putting 300 units out when you're spreading 1-40 (or whatever) is rare, but it of course contributes to the RoR. If that RoR is too high for you, then reduce the spread or increase BR. But you and anyone else here are quite capable of running the numbers to see exactly how these interchange. But for some reason you don't want to do that.
What is the RoR for a 1-40 spread with 2000 units BR over a shift? Or a lifetime?
As I said, pros have very different criteria, and would want a very low RoR.
Probably. But many people here are experienced enough to know when and how they can get away with spreads like this. I wouldn't second-guess them if I were you. But certainly, for common games and situations these kinds of spreads are undoubtedly heat-inducing. But the original poster was asking about "the boldest" spreads we used. Not what we usually use.
Tarzan, you have nothing to prove. The count you use allows you to be a lot more conservative than other counts but I agree that without mention of what bankrolls people are using, this comment section is a waste of time and sadly enough, shows how a large chunk of people here have no clue what their ROR is.
I can't speak for other people but just using a 1-10 spread at a particular game, I've lost 100x my initial bet in 1 6 deck shoe. It doesn't happen every day but it happens from time to time. Now just imagine if I was using a 1-50x spread like some people on here have said they've done. (When I say 1-50X, that also can mean 2-25X albeit the variance is less)
I can't speak for other people but just using a 1-10 spread at a particular game, I've lost 100x my initial bet in 1 6 deck shoe. It doesn't happen every day but it happens from time to time. Now just imagine if I was using a 1-50x spread like some people on here have said they've done. (When I say 1-50X, that also can mean 2-25X albeit the variance is less)
kelly or a fraction
A Kelly better with a replenishable bank can make large % of bank bets. A pro really wants no risk of a large drawdown which would force cutting bets and greatly increasing the long run while experiencing expenses, 1/4 to 1/8 Kelly comes to mind.
There exists an optimal ramp for each game. Many impose a spread; ex. 1 to 10, for fear of heat. However, medium bets would be larger. With the optimal ramp your medium bets are lower with very rare extra large bets.
Do you want the white hot heat of rare very large bets with optimal bets or the slow roasting off self imposed limits?
Referring to larger banks.
A Kelly better with a replenishable bank can make large % of bank bets. A pro really wants no risk of a large drawdown which would force cutting bets and greatly increasing the long run while experiencing expenses, 1/4 to 1/8 Kelly comes to mind.
There exists an optimal ramp for each game. Many impose a spread; ex. 1 to 10, for fear of heat. However, medium bets would be larger. With the optimal ramp your medium bets are lower with very rare extra large bets.
Do you want the white hot heat of rare very large bets with optimal bets or the slow roasting off self imposed limits?
Referring to larger banks.
Tarzan... STFU already.
""Units"" lol
Not that hard to have 10k "units" when the table minimum is 5, 10 or 25 bucks. You are acting like lowering my minimum bet somehow increases variance because the number of "units" risked on max bets increases. In fact, variance goes down while EV goes up. Thinking in terms of "units" is the exact wrong way of going about things. Makes much more sense to think in terms of "max bets" and I can guarantee you I have more max bets available to me in my bankroll than 99% of bjinfo posters.
PS I've never been to CR.
""Units"" lol
Not that hard to have 10k "units" when the table minimum is 5, 10 or 25 bucks. You are acting like lowering my minimum bet somehow increases variance because the number of "units" risked on max bets increases. In fact, variance goes down while EV goes up. Thinking in terms of "units" is the exact wrong way of going about things. Makes much more sense to think in terms of "max bets" and I can guarantee you I have more max bets available to me in my bankroll than 99% of bjinfo posters.
PS I've never been to CR.
Costa Rica has no LEGAL BJ games in its 28 microscopic casinos.
In spite of that if one looks hard enough a mediocre game can be found once in a while.
What they DO offer is an absurd game that they call "Rommy" or "Rummy" depending on the property.
Imagine a game with a House Edge of about 3.0% !
Rommy is six deck S17 DAS DOA BJ pays even-money,
and payoffs of 10–1 if the player had three sevens and
3–1 if the player has a SUITED 5–6–7.
:whip:
In spite of that if one looks hard enough a mediocre game can be found once in a while.
What they DO offer is an absurd game that they call "Rommy" or "Rummy" depending on the property.
Imagine a game with a House Edge of about 3.0% !
Rommy is six deck S17 DAS DOA BJ pays even-money,
and payoffs of 10–1 if the player had three sevens and
3–1 if the player has a SUITED 5–6–7.
:whip:
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Protecting people from advice that doesn't fit their position in the game
Like with the voodoo section, people are worried you are going to encourage someone without deep pockets to bet over their head and lose the farm. Or spread to much and lose their best games forcing them to travel to much and give away their advantage to travel expenses and worse games. Bad advice must be shown in the light. Just because you have the bankroll to loss 100k and not sweat it or you can travel the world seeking a great game doesn't mean that same crash and burn or make huge profits mentality is good advice for anyone else.
Like with the voodoo section, people are worried you are going to encourage someone without deep pockets to bet over their head and lose the farm. Or spread to much and lose their best games forcing them to travel to much and give away their advantage to travel expenses and worse games. Bad advice must be shown in the light. Just because you have the bankroll to loss 100k and not sweat it or you can travel the world seeking a great game doesn't mean that same crash and burn or make huge profits mentality is good advice for anyone else.
The OP asked a question and I answered it. For that I am getting attacked by Tarzan who is accusing me of not even being a real player. It's totally ridiculous.
You may think you are 'protecting' players from my bad advice, but I also may be opening some people's eyes to the fact that there is more out there than a vanilla ABC type count game.
You may think you are 'protecting' players from my bad advice, but I also may be opening some people's eyes to the fact that there is more out there than a vanilla ABC type count game.
The bottom line ...
This has devolved into strident screeching and flaming commentary.
RISK is central to this thread. RISK is ultimately a SUBJECTIVE phenomena.
One player's stomach-churning nightmare loss is another player's ho-hum event.
This error of treating a subjective issue AS IF it was an objective reality is as bad
as the even more commonplace "semantic" confusion, where the debating or arguing
parties have failed to agree upon the "definition of terms" being used.
This has devolved into strident screeching and flaming commentary.
RISK is central to this thread. RISK is ultimately a SUBJECTIVE phenomena.
One player's stomach-churning nightmare loss is another player's ho-hum event.
This error of treating a subjective issue AS IF it was an objective reality is as bad
as the even more commonplace "semantic" confusion, where the debating or arguing
parties have failed to agree upon the "definition of terms" being used.
To Chaperone's point, take this example:
You are a player spreading from $15-200 in a shoe game with a $15k bankroll, for about a 13:1 spread. What if you wanted to try one of these fancy 40:1 spreads you've been hearing about? If you spread $15-600 because you've been hearing 40:1 is the new thing, then you're not too bright and you have increased your RoR dramatically. However, if you spread $5-200, you have now increased your EV and reduced your variance, which are both good things. Others have pointed out that of course heat is a factor, particularly for places you wish to return to. But, there are places out there that will tolerate it. Sometimes for over a thousand hours, in Chaperone's case. Everyone focusing on the "huge" bankroll requirements is missing the point. Nobody here is advocating doubling or tripling your max bet. That isn't how we get the bigger spreads. It's reducing your min bet on the -EV hands.
You are a player spreading from $15-200 in a shoe game with a $15k bankroll, for about a 13:1 spread. What if you wanted to try one of these fancy 40:1 spreads you've been hearing about? If you spread $15-600 because you've been hearing 40:1 is the new thing, then you're not too bright and you have increased your RoR dramatically. However, if you spread $5-200, you have now increased your EV and reduced your variance, which are both good things. Others have pointed out that of course heat is a factor, particularly for places you wish to return to. But, there are places out there that will tolerate it. Sometimes for over a thousand hours, in Chaperone's case. Everyone focusing on the "huge" bankroll requirements is missing the point. Nobody here is advocating doubling or tripling your max bet. That isn't how we get the bigger spreads. It's reducing your min bet on the -EV hands.
Adding my stream to the pissing contest
I don't care about the issue of spread for bankroll risk; spread is only a problem for heat/exposure risk.
The maximum bet, assuming an appropriate ramp, is tied to risk of ruin. Little to do with spread.
By the way: I have no idea what a "unit" is. I have never seen a sensible definition.
A 20:1 spread from 5-100 has greater profit and lower risk of ruin than a 10:1 spread from 10-100.
On the other hand, assuming the same bankroll as above, a 20:1 spread from 10-200 has a greater risk of ruin.
I don't care about the issue of spread for bankroll risk; spread is only a problem for heat/exposure risk.
The maximum bet, assuming an appropriate ramp, is tied to risk of ruin. Little to do with spread.
By the way: I have no idea what a "unit" is. I have never seen a sensible definition.
A 20:1 spread from 5-100 has greater profit and lower risk of ruin than a 10:1 spread from 10-100.
On the other hand, assuming the same bankroll as above, a 20:1 spread from 10-200 has a greater risk of ruin.
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