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KimLee

Well-Known Member
#1
I posted a brief bio in the Site Announcements forum with suggested topics. Here is some preview to foster questions and dialog.

The Myth of Professional Card Counting:

Sorry, there are essentially no full-time professional counters. There are ex-professionals who still play occasionally. Many have diversified into poker or other advantage play. Others have flexible jobs in real estate or seasonal fields. Others are retired hobbyists playing primarily for fun, not to earn money. There are full-time hole carders and other advantage players. But it is fantasy to think you could count cards based on a 35-year-old book and make a good living doing something that takes only a few weeks of practice.

Josh Axelrad exemplifies the real pro - he went in, won as much money as quickly as possible, and got barred everywhere. The idea of professional green chip players is especially silly. You make more money betting $500+ per hand for 500 hours per year than betting lesser amounts for longer hours.


The Most Common Counting Mistake (Playing while losing):

The idea is from Ian Andersen. You plan for high counts, you plan for low counts, and you may even plan for heat. But you probably forget to plan for "tilt". Losing money can be psychologically stressful and impair our judgement. When losing, players rationalize that they won't get heat. These players try to get even in the face of deteriorating conditions and increased heat. Most barrings come while losing.

The Biggest Counting Mistake (Underbetting):

Obviously the worst mistake is playing a negative game. But for positive players, the worst thing is usually underbetting. They artificially define a Kelly bankroll of, say $10K. They might win $50 per playing hour, but after transportation and scouting it is less than $25. And that doesn't even factor in expenses! If they have a bad run and lose $5K then they cut bets in half. This is crazy, considering these people may have $100K+ in home equity, cars, retirement funds, etc. They should instead declare a $100K bankroll and bet 1/10th Kelly. Then if they lose $5K they hardly need to adjust. As they get confidence in their games they can ratchet up their betting levels.


The Typical Wrong Way and the Right Way to Visit Vegas (Comp Value):
A typical novice goes without a plan. He gets a crummy cheap hotel room off-strip. Then he schleps around to random mediocre games. He gravitates to bad handheld games so he can "touch the cards" and rest his tired ass.

A prepared player plans where he intends to play. If he brings family then he stays near strip attractions. He uses LasVegasAdvisor.com to find room deals. He also reads Comp City and Jean Scott's books to get mailers. With a nice convenient room and some "paper route" planning, he can play a sequence of convenient 30-minute sessions. Because his room is more convenient, he spends more time in high-quality games, and wastes less time travelling, scouting, cashing chips, etc. At worst he will accumulate a bunch of nice buffet comps and future room comps, and may get dinners and shows. Those comps are risk-free and tax-free.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#3
I look forward to our discussion on "the myth of card counting", as I consider myself a fulltime counter. I have no other seasonal or flexible jobs or source of income. This is my seventh year of having supported myself solely off of blackjack, and I am only a green to mid black player. :confused:

I guess the key wording here, as in some of the other similar discussions of this topic on this site, may be 'good living'. Last year I made just over 70 grand, which you may not, and many other here don't consider a good living. This year I have already surpassed last years total and with a little luck (or maybe absence of bad luck aka variance) will hit six figures for the first time. Again, I know this isn't any great riches, especially when you consider the absence of benifits, but it's not bad for a guy who quit a job paying just under 20 grand, 6 years ago, at age 21 to go in this direction, I feel pretty good about where I am at. So again, I think it depends on one's definition of a good or decent living.

Again, I look forward to a lively, respectful discussion.
 
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daddybo

Well-Known Member
#4
I like to think the dollar amount is not a good measure of success. The amounts are relative to what your goals in life are. There is much honor in being good at what you do, regardless of what that may be.
 

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#5
kewljason said:
I look forward to our discussion on "the myth of card counting", as I consider myself a fulltime counter. I have no other seasonal or flexible jobs or source of income. This is my seventh year of having supported myself solely off of blackjack, and I am only a green to mid black player. :confused:

I guess the key wording here, as in some of the other similar discussions of this topic on this site, may be 'good living'. Last year I made just over 70 grand, which you may not, and many other here don't consider a good living. This year I have already surpassed last years total and with a little luck (or maybe absence of bad luck aka variance) will hit six figures for the first time. Again, I know this isn't any great riches, especially when you consider the absence of benifits, but it's not bad for a guy who quit a job paying just under 20 grand, 6 years ago, at age 21 to go in this direction, I feel pretty good about where I am at. So again, I think it depends on one's definition of a good or decent living.

Again, I look forward to a lively, respectful discussion.
Kewljason,

Are you ONLY counting cards? Or are you making other advantage plays?
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#6
Pro21 said:
Kewljason,

Are you ONLY counting cards? Or are you making other advantage plays?
For the most part just counting. I have just started to dabble in a couple other techniques this year, but am probably doing myself more harm than good so far. :laugh:
 

Lonesome Gambler

Well-Known Member
#7
In general, I agree with the full-time counter thing (who has the patience?!), but Kewljason immediately came to mind as a notable exception. I'm sure there are some others, too, but it's certainly not the easiest or most efficient way to make a living gambling.
 

Finn Dog

Well-Known Member
#8
Lonesome Gambler said:
In general, I agree with the full-time counter thing (who has the patience?!), but Kewljason immediately came to mind as a notable exception. I'm sure there are some others, too, but it's certainly not the easiest or most efficient way to make a living gambling.
So true.

And I sure tip my hat to those who can.

What tremendous discipline!

FD
 

Finn Dog

Well-Known Member
#9
kewljason said:
Last year I made just over 70 grand ... This year I have already surpassed last years total and with a little luck ... will hit six figures for the first time.
KJ:

Congratulations on your success.

I think you're knockin' it out of the park.

Best regards,

FD
 

HockeXpert

Well-Known Member
#11
Lonesome Gambler said:
In general, I agree with the full-time counter thing (who has the patience?!), but Kewljason immediately came to mind as a notable exception. I'm sure there are some others, too, but it's certainly not the easiest or most efficient way to make a living gambling.
Kewljason and Flash came to mind immediately to me. They are the only cc-only ap's I know of. In light of this Kim Lee vs Flash thing going on, I must say I have seen Flash in action and he definitely possesses the skills to make a living as a cc. Whether he has been successful or not, only Flash knows for sure.

My hat goes off to both Kewljason and Flash for their patience and endurance. As long as they are doing well enough to support themselves year after year then it is irrelevant how much they make a year.

HockeXpert
 
#12
Hockey

HockeXpert said:
Kewljason and Flash came to mind immediately to me. They are the only cc-only ap's I know of. In light of this Kim Lee vs Flash thing going on, I must say I have seen Flash in action and he definitely possesses the skills to make a living as a cc. Whether he has been successful or not, only Flash knows for sure.

My hat goes off to both Kewljason and Flash for their patience and endurance. As long as they are doing well enough to support themselves year after year then it is irrelevant how much they make a year.

HockeXpert
Well at least you have made a determination after seeing Flash play. Have you also seen KJ play? Also, being a skilled player and making a living off of CCing are two seperate things.

CP
 

HockeXpert

Well-Known Member
#13
I hear you CP. Having skills and making money are two different things. I've never run into KL, that I know of.:laugh:

I've seen my share of cc's and most aren't much of a threat if at all. I've never traveled to the midwest or ac and have no immediate plans to do so so I haven't had the pleasure of seeing some of you big dogs at work.:(

HockeXpert
 

Mr. T

Well-Known Member
#14
I generally stay clear off heated arguements like this.

But for KimLee first. You have an Asian name. Are you another Stanford Wong or are you really Asian, Chinese or Korean.

Like one casino says to me your Comp is based on your theoretical loss. So actual winnings like $70K does not mean much when you could lose it all back and more subsequently. I presume you keep good record of your play and based on the amount you have bet and your calculated winning HA what would be your theoetical win.
 
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