N00b makes card counting advance, or does he?

I've been working on my counting speed, and to my significant frustration, could not seem to count an actual single deck any faster than 29-32 seconds. Finally I just started turning over cards one at a time without trying to count. I found that I could only physically flip the cards over in about 24-25 seconds. Not sure if that makes me completely retarded or anything.

Regardless, I poked around here on the forums and found http://www.lastresortconsulting.com/pages/practice/LRquiz5.html (Archive copy) . It helps you count cards 2 at a time, which is closer to what one would see in a casino atmosphere. Of course I was able to improve on my time, counting a full deck accurately in 18-22 seconds. I'm sure some more experienced counters can improve on those times, but I was fairly proud of myself for being able to click through the deck almost twice as fast as I could with an actual deck in my hand.

Bringing this rant to an end, I'm wondering if these times are good enough to start legitimate AP, or if I should further improve on my times before hitting the casinos.

I had the exact same problem as you when I started counting. I couldn't beat 30 seconds counting down a deck then I tried timing myself just flipping the cards without counting. I got the same result. Try counting down the deck face up without having to flip the cards over it makes a big difference. Then I started counting down a deck on the computer and by just clicking the mouse I knocked off 10 seconds. As long as you can count down a deck in 25 seconds or less with near perfect results you will have no problem whatsoever in the casino.

That's good. Now try holding the cards in front of you (face-forward) and fan through them with your thumbs. This way you won't be counting any set amount at a time. After doing this a few times, you'll get up a good system for ignoring neutral cards and cancelling others out.

Hopson, as you are probably noticing, you don't even count most of the time at the tables, but pair eliminating. For example, if this gets delt out:

10

4,10 6,6 10,10 8,3

You shouldn't even have to say +1 or -1 in your head. It should be more like this in your head:

4,10 6,6,10,10 3,10 = 0

You should glaze over very quickly and eliminte the pairs, which is what you should do when you count down a deck. 7,8,9 will stop registering in your mind and the lows cancel the highs and the only number you have in your head is the leftovers.

Good job on getting down to 20 seconds! You can still improve though, keep up the good work.

Congratulations on improving your time counting down a deck. But that still doesn't mean you will be an effective card counter. One of the biggest problem I've seen with new counters is lack of endurance with there counting. Every new counter is obsessed with counting as fast as they can, which is alright, but can you count quickly and acurrately for 30 minutes, 1 hour, maybe 2? How long do you expect to sit at the table? However long you better be able to count acurrately for the whole time, or your mistakes will chew up any advantage you might get. Now that you can count down a deck try counting down 4 than 6 with no more than a minute break in between. That will build up endurance for counting for a session and not just for time trials.

And remember counting is just the beginning, you need to know what to do with the count you've got. Make sure you're confident in knowing what size bet to put up for the count you have.
There's also figuring proper size betting units in proportion with your bankroll. And very importantly none of this matters at all if you don't know perfect basic strategy. There's a hell of a lot more to being an AP than seeing how fast you can count down a deck. But it is a good start, keep up the good work.

When you say 4 then 6, I assume that means numbers of decks with a minute between decks? Over the last hour or so (terribly bored at work), I've been hitting my BS and I18 flashcards, counting virtual decks, and testing BS. I did ten single deck simulations with an average time of 19.6 seconds per deck, with 1 error at the 6th deck (I got distracted, that never happens in a casino...) where I figured the count RC 1 lower than it actually was. BS is almost second nature to me at this point, I have to take a literal second for some soft totals and 9,9, but I always get it right.

I started another thread to get some feedback on my spread/ramping over here. I think I've got a pretty good handle on everything so far.

I really appreciate the input, thanks.

20 seconds is good enough to keep up in a casino. You will still need some practice in a casino environment to feel comfortable since counting at a casino and counting down a deck at home are a bit different.

Just because I'm weird that way, I've started counting with with headphones and loud music going. It's definitely a distraction, but I'm able to keep roughly the same pace.

Do even more

Headphones are an isolated type distraction. It helps but is nothing like the casino. While listening it is quite easy to mentally turn the music off and concentrate on the cards, so I consider it a false test. You need to be able to count while not only hearing but responding. In a casino you will be counting while holding a conversation with the pit, the dealer or perhaps a player while turning around and getting your drink from the CW and giving her a tip. So try counting that deck down while talking with someone and having to turn around and see what the kids are doing. You need to be able to handle a world full of distractions, and also be part of those distractions while all the time keeping your count, converting your count, placing the proper bet and using the proper indices according to that count.

ihate17

There's no substitute for the casino environment. As long as you use Basic Strategy, sitting at a real live blackjack table betting the minimum and counting is the best way to practice and it costs you virtually nothing, especially if you are getting comped.

Allright, that's it. Going to AC tomorrow, looking to play at the Borgata, Tropicana and maybe Resorts. BJInsider.com's reports say those 3 are the best places for red play BJ in AC, all 6 decks too, not the monster 8 deckers. I read on Borgata's site that they offer "Surrender Blackjack," but I'm wondering if there's a rule twist there that negates the surrender advantage.

Looking forward to my first trip to AC in some time. I feel like the Rocky music should be playing in the background.

good luck dude! thats interesting about the six deck game in AC for red chipers. i wasn't aware it could be that good in AC..... may just have to head that way one day.
let us know how your foray turns out.
best regards,
mr fr0g

I'm pretty sure the low limit 6-deck shoes are only at the Borgata, and there is definitely no surrender (unless it's brand-spanking new).

Yeah Borgata is the only place for $5 6D, but the Tropicana and Resorts have 6D as well with $10-25 minimums. The Sands has $5 tables, but on 8D action.

Here's a link to Borgata's table games guide where they claim to have "Surrender Blackjack." Hopefully they don't bastardize a meatand potatoes rule to offer this, if they even offer it at all.

http://www.theborgata.com/assets/PDF/tables_guide.pdf

Their surrender rule sounds identical in effect to regular late surrender, but with a much worse description.

Well, unfortunately my first trip as something resembling an AP came out on the negative side. My wife and I played from the same fund, with her being a perfect BS player. In about 20-22 hours of combined play, we finished at -40 units, which by my calcuations is well within one SD.

We played exclusively at Borgata, which is really an amazing property. Until this past weekend we had only frequented the lower end casinos on the boardwalk. In fact, my wife wanted to go back there for "old time's sake." The Sands' parking garage smelled strongly of urine, and believe it or not, I saw a girl taking a leak while making a poor attempt at hiding herself.

Back to my play, I was getting more 14s and 15s than R. Kelly it seemed, especially on my double downs. The PCs were very generous with comps and quite passive in terms of heat. We got breakfast/lunch/dinner buffets for both days, as well as a pair of free stogies (Cohibas too!) courtesy of our comp dollars.

Friday afternoon there were three $5 tables, and from Friday night through 6am (we had to sleep sometime...), there were always two $5 tables. Of course those tables were being heavily scouted, but there wasn't an empty seat at a BJ table for several hours, so Wonging was just out of the question after around 8pm on Friday.

I'm looking forward to going back, although it will definitely be a mid-week trip. A few of the dealers were lightning fast and I had to fudge the count a little bit on more than one occassion, always making sure to adjust it lower than what it probably was.

i know your wife and yourself enjoyed playing at the table together unfortunately that is probably part of the reason you were down forty units. with you both playing from the same funds it was as if you were playing two hands all the time. playing two hands at all times puts you at a disadvantage since you are most often playing at counts that are not to your advantage so you end up betting twice as much on those 'waiting' hands.
best regards,
mr fr0g

I also forgot to mention that the Borgata does not offer LS on any of their games. One of the PCs told me they offered it for a very short period of time when they first opened, but quickly took it down.

They are betting twice as much on the "waiting hands", but they are also betting more on the good counts as long as she matches his bet since he is counting and she is not. If she just matches his bet she will be like a card counter that doesn't use indices.

that is true however they would both want to be careful to reduce the optimal bets that would be made if only one player was playing. when the time came to bet up each would want to only bet about 2/3 the size of the optimal bet for one player. also i believe it is not always desirable to play two hands on the lower end positive true counts. that would be a move you would want to make mostly on higher true counts.
best regards,
mr fr0g