With all this info...
- Thread starter jackpine
- Start date
No way. I've been playing for quite a while now and I have only once shared a table with someone that I thought might be counting, but even then I wasn't sure.
UncrownedKing
Well-Known Member
I agree with the statement above. Remember guys, the best counters are the ones you don't know about. Just because other people at the table aren't playing their counting system perfect or perfect BS, doesn't mean they aren't counting. The art of counting is looking like you are a loser to everyone, including other people at the table. As long as you come out with a marginal profit is what matters.
SleightOfHand
Well-Known Member
While there may be a lot of information on the internet, you have to consider the ignorance of people. From what I read, around 1% of people use BS let alone count.
Do you guys keep your chips visible or pocket them as you win to hide how much your carrying or betting?
I spot a counter on almost every visit to a casino. I can tell by their betting ramps, wonging, and sometimes even by their modified playing strategy.
Now, the fact that they are counting does not mean that they are good. Just like UncrownedKing said, a good AP should probably look like a loser, at least most of the time.
I think that there are a lot of people out there, just like myself, who would like to be good at this, but it is far away from being easy. There is a very good reason why only the chosen few succeed in this brutal battle.
takinfromindians97
Well-Known Member
disagree
No way any counter should be able to see another counter at his table one way or another your bets should go up and down together most of the time obviously all counts are different and sometimes you can be positive with one count well negative with another (i know this so please dont point it out). But if you are playing at the same table for any amount of time at all you should be able to pick him out by the way he takes insurence and plays his indices and alot of other things should send up flags to another AP. I have been playing for years now and i have only seen a handfull of counters and mainly there were in AC when the four decks came about for a while there.
No way any counter should be able to see another counter at his table one way or another your bets should go up and down together most of the time obviously all counts are different and sometimes you can be positive with one count well negative with another (i know this so please dont point it out). But if you are playing at the same table for any amount of time at all you should be able to pick him out by the way he takes insurence and plays his indices and alot of other things should send up flags to another AP. I have been playing for years now and i have only seen a handfull of counters and mainly there were in AC when the four decks came about for a while there.
EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
If they're playing at your table, or if you're observing the bets at another table, it's fairly hard to miss. Even if they're using a count that's very different than yours, there's going to be a substantial correlation in bets.
So it depends on the joint, but counters are pretty uncommon. I mean, it really does take some work and practice to get even the basics down. Half the people think it's impossible and don't try. The other half couldn't figure it out even if they tried.
So it depends on the joint, but counters are pretty uncommon. I mean, it really does take some work and practice to get even the basics down. Half the people think it's impossible and don't try. The other half couldn't figure it out even if they tried.
I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people out there who know the rudimentary knowledge of card counting, if not most people. Most people know that there's a way to beat blackjack. Hell, I remember back when I was 15 or 16 or so watching a 20/20 special about professional gamblers and hearing one of the guys say "when the cards are high, bet big." I can remember trying to use that information during my senior all-night party playing blackjack with prize coupons... lol. (I didn't do so well with it)
Knowing about card counting is not exactly exclusive knowledge. It's gotten somewhat obvious to me when someone who has no clue how to count cards tries to do it at the table. He'll just wait until a few small cards spill out of the shoe and throw down an exorbitant amount of money, only to watch it disappear the next round. He'll have this look on his face that says "why didn't that work?" What he doesn't understand is that card counting is a lot more than just knowing that high cards are good and low cards are bad. That's like expecting to be able to drive a car only knowing that the accelerator speeds the car up and the brakes slow it down. You'll crash and burn very quickly if you don't know the rules of the road, how to steer, use traffic signals, obey signs, etc.
Are there lots of people who try to count? Sure, probably more than we think. Are there lots of people who can actually use card counting to turn it into advantage play. Sure, but for every competent counter, there's probably 10 more that need more practice. I don't think I've seen another counter at the table before that knew what he was doing, or if I have then he was truly worthy of praise for blending in so well.
Knowing about card counting is not exactly exclusive knowledge. It's gotten somewhat obvious to me when someone who has no clue how to count cards tries to do it at the table. He'll just wait until a few small cards spill out of the shoe and throw down an exorbitant amount of money, only to watch it disappear the next round. He'll have this look on his face that says "why didn't that work?" What he doesn't understand is that card counting is a lot more than just knowing that high cards are good and low cards are bad. That's like expecting to be able to drive a car only knowing that the accelerator speeds the car up and the brakes slow it down. You'll crash and burn very quickly if you don't know the rules of the road, how to steer, use traffic signals, obey signs, etc.
Are there lots of people who try to count? Sure, probably more than we think. Are there lots of people who can actually use card counting to turn it into advantage play. Sure, but for every competent counter, there's probably 10 more that need more practice. I don't think I've seen another counter at the table before that knew what he was doing, or if I have then he was truly worthy of praise for blending in so well.
Mimosine
Well-Known Member
there are many people who can count in their home who can't in a casino.
there are people who haven't practiced enough and make mistakes that they aren't even aware of.
and there are many other components necessary to make a successful counter. one of them is emotional, another is financial.
you can't be a gambler and you have to have a pretty substantial stake in the bank.
if any of these or countless others are off, even the most proficient "counter" is destined for ruin.
i've encountered two or three counters in the past 2 years. one was pretty damn blatant, playing 2X10 to 2X150 for several hours (6D) I was using KO he was using Hi/LO I was playing in his shadow except he always wonged out 1 round before me! --- i though it was Rhino, the other was even worse; The second one i found after a few rounds in this small dumpy joint (2X10 to 2X80 on DD). he was minutes away from a backoff and I didn't want to be there for the backoff. Again I thought it was Rhino, but it wasn't. I've never seen a counter in vegas, though i've only logged probably less than 120 hours there. I've played with thousands of people at this point and found 2 competent counters, one of whom was being overly aggressive at a small sweaty dump with no act. an anecdote, yes, with a little evidence.
there are people who haven't practiced enough and make mistakes that they aren't even aware of.
and there are many other components necessary to make a successful counter. one of them is emotional, another is financial.
you can't be a gambler and you have to have a pretty substantial stake in the bank.
if any of these or countless others are off, even the most proficient "counter" is destined for ruin.
i've encountered two or three counters in the past 2 years. one was pretty damn blatant, playing 2X10 to 2X150 for several hours (6D) I was using KO he was using Hi/LO I was playing in his shadow except he always wonged out 1 round before me! --- i though it was Rhino, the other was even worse; The second one i found after a few rounds in this small dumpy joint (2X10 to 2X80 on DD). he was minutes away from a backoff and I didn't want to be there for the backoff. Again I thought it was Rhino, but it wasn't. I've never seen a counter in vegas, though i've only logged probably less than 120 hours there. I've played with thousands of people at this point and found 2 competent counters, one of whom was being overly aggressive at a small sweaty dump with no act. an anecdote, yes, with a little evidence.
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callipygian
Well-Known Member
There's a ton of financial advice in general which is both free and good, yet the average person still invests their money in -20% EV credit card debt. There's a ton of medical advice in general which is both free and good, yet there are still millions of fat, smoking, reckless drivers.
Availability of advice probably has little to do with public acceptance.
In 30+ years of playing and counting, I have run across no more than a dozen confirmed card counters. A few more may have been slick enough to be undetectable, but I doubt it.
I've tutored players in person, over the phone and via e-mail who have read Bluebook II, and most remain hung up on the Sacred Flow, the Dummy at 3rd Base, Pressing Up on your Wins, Walking away after losing 4 in a row, Quitting when your Ahead, altering Basic Strategy based on the last two cards out of the shoe, etc, -- and they continue to contour the crux of their game along those lines. They augment counting into their game by turning a structured count system into "having a feel for the count", won't practice, don't ever want to lose, and if they do, they say it's not worth it or it doesn't work, and usually go back to their betting progression.
For an example of what I suspect might be an example of this, see the latest written review of Bluebook II on Amazon.com. With all that said, I'd guess maybe one blackjack player in a couple thousand is a competent counter.
Mimosine
Well-Known Member
That was going to be my guess based on 2 years of part-time play and encountering 2 card counters. In 2 years I've played with at least 1000 people, probably closer to 2500. They stuck out like a sore thumb. One of them must have realized I was counting too, as I was playing in his shadow! the other one was betting so aggressively, I left before really sticking it to the game, I don't think he fingered me, he was using a level 1 count and I was using a level 2, my strike points were much more aggressive than his, but his bet ramp was just ludicrous for a DD game.
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EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
I've seen like four counters at one local joint that seems to draw them like flies, while only spotting one or two at every other place I've been too.
I TOLD YOU TO LEAVE ME ALONE! :grin:
Mimosine
Well-Known Member
sorry i got our days confused. I thought I was the 3rd Saturday of every month.....
That's exactly what I look for, and I'm sure I'd notice. I suppose there aren't many where I play most often.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
More say they are than those that do
Proficient counters are very rare. Many people probably attempt cardcounting but fail. Most who try it never even learn to play basic strategy perfectly. I also think well over 90% of those who try it give it up for many reasons.
What I encounter much more than a real counter at the tables is the self proclaimed counter. I am a friendly talkative guy on the tables and this may cause people to just come up to me and talk. Recently this guy asks me how I am doing (winning) and then goes on to tell me he always wins because he is a cardcounter. I had played with the guy perhaps once before and saw nothing that gave me a clue that he counted but on a new shuffle I join him alone at a table. After a half dozen hand or so, I wong out knowing this guy is full of it. The count is in the toilet and after losing a few in a row this guy is perhaps playing a martingale and getting his butt kicked. He looks at me and says, "your leaving changed the dynamics of the shoe." Sorry comes from my mouth as I walk away. ASM game so he is also not a shuffle tracker.
I also have a friend who I taught BS to and tried to teach how to count because he asked me. Went to a casino together and watched him play like a pure ploppy. Complained about the plays of other people and then he stays on 15 vs 7, splits 4,4 vs 2 and other wrong plays. For kicks I ask him what the count was and he is off by so much he must have made up a number.
Much depends upon where you play, but playing mainly in Vegas (strip) and So Cal Indian casinos, I firmly believe that far less than 1% of players play basic strategy, my guess would be 1/4 of 1% but a high percentage of those few do count to some degree. I think once one plays basic strategy perfectly then they look for something else...counting.
ihate17
Proficient counters are very rare. Many people probably attempt cardcounting but fail. Most who try it never even learn to play basic strategy perfectly. I also think well over 90% of those who try it give it up for many reasons.
What I encounter much more than a real counter at the tables is the self proclaimed counter. I am a friendly talkative guy on the tables and this may cause people to just come up to me and talk. Recently this guy asks me how I am doing (winning) and then goes on to tell me he always wins because he is a cardcounter. I had played with the guy perhaps once before and saw nothing that gave me a clue that he counted but on a new shuffle I join him alone at a table. After a half dozen hand or so, I wong out knowing this guy is full of it. The count is in the toilet and after losing a few in a row this guy is perhaps playing a martingale and getting his butt kicked. He looks at me and says, "your leaving changed the dynamics of the shoe." Sorry comes from my mouth as I walk away. ASM game so he is also not a shuffle tracker.
I also have a friend who I taught BS to and tried to teach how to count because he asked me. Went to a casino together and watched him play like a pure ploppy. Complained about the plays of other people and then he stays on 15 vs 7, splits 4,4 vs 2 and other wrong plays. For kicks I ask him what the count was and he is off by so much he must have made up a number.
Much depends upon where you play, but playing mainly in Vegas (strip) and So Cal Indian casinos, I firmly believe that far less than 1% of players play basic strategy, my guess would be 1/4 of 1% but a high percentage of those few do count to some degree. I think once one plays basic strategy perfectly then they look for something else...counting.
ihate17
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
thirty years of counting? how on earth could you stand that with out going buggy brained? not meant disrespectful, but i know you must have spent one heck of a lot of time concentrating on an awful lot of disadvantageous counts. doesn't that bother the heck out of you?
or maybe you wong a lot, i guess?
ok, but haven't you after thirty years experience gotten a 'feel for the count'?
callipygian
Well-Known Member
I think that the two are correlated but not causative. Playing basic strategy takes a certain amount of mathematical trust; it's not easy to hit hard 16 vs. 10 knowing there's a 3/4 chance you're going to lose and a 1/2 chance that someone at the table is going to curse you out. But people who trust the math understand that this is the less unprofitable thing to do. It's these same people who quickly see the value - and the pitfalls - in card counting.
I do wong out, but not as conscientiously as most -- usually at -2TC. And no, I have never tried to develop the ability to "gain a feel for the count". Don't think I could trust it. After the first 500 or 1000 hours of dedicated counting at the tables, I believe it becomes a somewhat automatic tabulation.
If you're a player who continues to do "fuzzy counting", I'd recommend an abbreviated, but structured count, such as Snyder's "Senior Count", (4, 5, 6 vs. Jack, Queen, King) or an unbalanced spin-off of that which is KISS I (4, 5, 6 & black 2 vs. Jack, Queen, King). They keep tabs on only around half the cards, lightening the load of card counting considerably, but still have a 78% & 79% BC. I believe these would serve you much better than "fuzzy counting".