Ace-Ten front count

B

Bossplayer21

Member
I am having trouble keeping the count in my head and still being able to make perfect BS plays or enjoy myself. For now I have given up on hi-lo and will try the Ace-Ten front count. I read this is in Fred Renzey's book and wondered if any of you have ever tried this count. I understand it is not the best tool but if I play perfect BS and use this count and its advanced plays will I be close to even on EV? The hard part of this count is I have to estimate 2 decks worth of cards in the discard tray. To make this easier I am having a friend count the cards played and I will count the A-10, so we will have no errors in estimation. What are your thoughts on this plan.
 
Bossplayer21 said:
I am having trouble keeping the count in my head and still being able to make perfect BS plays or enjoy myself. For now I have given up on hi-lo and will try the Ace-Ten front count. I read this is in Fred Renzey's book and wondered if any of you have ever tried this count. I understand it is not the best tool but if I play perfect BS and use this count and its advanced plays will I be close to even on EV? The hard part of this count is I have to estimate 2 decks worth of cards in the discard tray. To make this easier I am having a friend count the cards played and I will count the A-10, so we will have no errors in estimation. What are your thoughts on this plan.
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Counting aces while side counting the tens sure sounds like a good count to me. Why did you give up on hi-lo, Bossplayer? Renzey is on to something.
 
Bossplayer21 said:
I am having trouble keeping the count in my head and still being able to make perfect BS plays or enjoy myself. For now I have given up on hi-lo and will try the Ace-Ten front count. I read this is in Fred Renzey's book and wondered if any of you have ever tried this count. I understand it is not the best tool but if I play perfect BS and use this count and its advanced plays will I be close to even on EV? The hard part of this count is I have to estimate 2 decks worth of cards in the discard tray. To make this easier I am having a friend count the cards played and I will count the A-10, so we will have no errors in estimation. What are your thoughts on this plan.
Click to expand...

The Ace/10 Front Count is extremely easy and extremely weak as counting systems go. But if you can't seem to get the hang of plus/minus counting, the Ace/10 Front Count is a heck of a lot better than just playing basic strategy.

You will not have a positive EV if you simply play all shoes, good and bad. You must use that front two deck mark as your barometer to either finish the shoe with one unit bets, wong out, or increase your wagers the rest of the way.

As is strongly recommended with any kind of advantage play in shoe games, you should also backcount your way into your new table every time you've left the last one because of a bad front count.

And finally, understand that you must spread your bets from 1-to-6 units to capitalize on your infrequent advantages. To play on the same bankroll you used for flat betting basic strategy, your one unit Ace/10 bet should be only around one-third of your BS flat bet, so that your six unit plays will in effect, be only about double.

The book spells all this out in detail. Doing these things will bring you a net positive EV equal to about one-third that of Hi/Lo. It's paltry and uncertain over a limited time -- but it still beats the snot out of playing with a disadvantage like nearly everybody else.

Other responses and critiques are welcome.
 
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too difficult

I have not put in the time or practice to proficently count hi-lo. It takes me 45 seconds to count down a deck. I find it easier to count in pairs during the game then just fliping thru a deck. I have trouble remembering the count and I think I am too obvious that I am trying to count. For now I am going to avoid the hi-lo until I put in the time to practice it, but wanted to know what peole thought of the Ace-Ten front count?
 
Mr. Renzey Thank you

Thanks for replying to my questions, are you really Fred Renzey? If so then I want to say I love reading your books and articles. I also use your hand comp plays rule of "45" and Dr. Pepper and the board composition plays along with the ace-ten count plays, does all this bring me closer to even? I put in the effort to memorize this to make me slightly better than a BS player. The 6 unit spread makes me nervious because I could potentionally bet 6 units the remainer of the shoe and get killed. If I am unwilling to bet 6 units should I avoid using the ace-ten count entirely?
 
Renzey said:
The Ace/10 Front Count is extremely easy and extremely weak as counting systems go. But if you can't seem to get the hang of plus/minus counting, the Ace/10 Front Count is a heck of a lot better than just playing basic strategy.

You will not have a positive EV if you simply play all shoes, good and bad. You must use that front two deck mark as your barometer to either finish the shoe with one unit bets, wong out, or increase your wagers the rest of the way.

As is strongly recommended with any kind of advantage play in shoe games, you should also backcount your way into your new table every time you've left the last one because of a bad front count.

And finally, understand that you must spread your bets from 1-to-6 units to capitalize on your infrequent advantages. To play on the same bankroll you used for flat betting basic strategy, your one unit Ace/10 bet should be only around one-third of your BS flat bet, so that your six unit plays will in effect, be only about double.

The book spells all this out in detail. Doing these things will bring you a net positive EV equal to about one-third that of Hi/Lo. It's paltry and uncertain over a limited time -- but it still beats the snot out of playing with a disadvantage like nearly everybody else.

Other responses and critiques are welcome.
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Don't sell yourself short Renzey. The Ace-Ten count can do better on handheld games. Your count can recognize blackjack frequencies better than most counts. It can also warn the player to not depend on a "high count" with most conventional counts while most of the aces are out of play.
 
Bossplayer21 said:
The 6 unit spread makes me nervious because I could potentionally bet 6 units the remainer of the shoe and get killed. If I am unwilling to bet 6 units should I avoid using the ace-ten count entirely?
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That's the world of advantage blackjack. You will get crushed while betting multiple units on great counts repeatedly. But you will build tall stacks of chips while doing that same thing more often than you'll lose. Most of your flux will come at good counts when you've got the serious bets at stake. The rest of the time will all be pretty much ho-hum. It's a lot like playing poker and folding all your bad hands, while betting and raising with the good ones.

But remember, your six unit bet should really be only around double what your flat basic strategy bets used to be -- and your new one unit bets should be around one-third. Don't try to win without that 6-to-1 spread -- unless you play only good counts and nothing else.
 
Kiss

Bossplayer21 said:
Thanks for replying to my questions, are you really Fred Renzey? If so then I want to say I love reading your books and articles. I also use your hand comp plays rule of "45" and Dr. Pepper and the board composition plays along with the ace-ten count plays, does all this bring me closer to even? I put in the effort to memorize this to make me slightly better than a BS player. The 6 unit spread makes me nervious because I could potentionally bet 6 units the remainer of the shoe and get killed. If I am unwilling to bet 6 units should I avoid using the ace-ten count entirely?
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I think you should use Kiss instead, 45 seconds should be 30 seconds with Kiss and there is no need to convert RC to TC, there is also an excelent "upgrade " to Kiss 3, practice is of course the price for beat the casino, good luck.
 
Base unit = table min

My problem Mr. Renzey is that my base unit is $10 which is equal to the table minimum. I can not cut that into 1/3. My role for my next trip is only $400, is that enough to spread 1-6 at a $10 table? I would think my RoR would be huge.
 
Bossplayer21 said:
My problem Mr. Renzey is that my base unit is $10 which is equal to the table minimum. I can not cut that into 1/3. My role for my next trip is only $400, is that enough to spread 1-6 at a $10 table? I would think my RoR would be huge.
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Your session bankroll should contain 12 of your max bets. Spreading $10-to-$60, that means you want to have around $700 in your pocket. Alternatives to that would be a rather high ROR on a $400 role -- or to purely backcount, and only play front counts of "36" or lower at a constant $35 or $40 bet.
 
tribute said:
I use the Ace-10 Front Count on 6-deck shoe games. Is there a method or variation that will work on double deck pitch games? (Rules being: DAS, RSA,
S17, DOA, No SUR)
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Yes there is. You want a front count of "8" or less at the 26 card mark in the discard tray. At that point you can increase to a 6 unit bet in two or three steps.

It's vital however, to have two things going for you. One is 60% pen min. The other is 3 players max. Take Insurance on any decks that have a front count of "7" or less. Stand with 16 vs. 10 on any decks that have a front count of "9" or less. There are other finer details, but that's the crux of it.
 
sorry to dig this up but I have a question regarding the A/10 Front Count and can't PM yet.

What are the major changes to this count in an 8 deck shoe?
 
Bossplayer21-
I use the Kiss III count described in Blackjack Bluebook II. As you know it's an unbalanced count-so unlike hi-lo there's no need to divide by the remaining decks. Have you tried it? I've had great success with it for years. Good cards!:joker:
 
Renzey said:
Yes there is. You want a front count of "8" or less at the 26 card mark in the discard tray. At that point you can increase to a 6 unit bet in two or three steps.

It's vital however, to have two things going for you. One is 60% pen min. The other is 3 players max. Take Insurance on any decks that have a front count of "7" or less. Stand with 16 vs. 10 on any decks that have a front count of "9" or less. There are other finer details, but that's the crux of it.
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Can you extend the front count method for 8 decks. Seems like you just keep the same percentages of A/10 and how many card you front count.

2 decks out of 6 decks = 1/3 shoe
1/3 8 deck shoe = 2.67 decks 140 cards.

same apply same % of A/10
36(A/10) of 2decks(104 cards) = 34.6%
34.6% of 140 cards (2.66 decks) is 48 A/10

so for an 8 deck shoe count down 48 A/10 through first 140 cards.

Seems logical.
 
Bossplayer21 said:
I am having trouble keeping the count in my head and still being able to make perfect BS plays or enjoy myself. For now I have given up on hi-lo and will try the Ace-Ten front count. To make this easier I am having a friend count the cards played and I will count the A-10, so we will have no errors in estimation. What are your thoughts on this plan.
Click to expand...
A lot of effort that has about the same outcome as straight BS, though somewhat penetration dependent.
You need to master HiLo or some UB scheme like KO or KISS. or give it up and just optimize comp.
 
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