Multiple card 12's

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drtomoh

New Member
I'm aware basic strategy is to hit a 12 vs. a 2 or 3. But does that also pertain to a three or four card 12? e.g. if I have 2,3,7 vs. dealer 2 or 3 do I still hit or stand because more small cards are out? Would the strategy change depending on the number of decks?
 
iCountNTrack said:
You probably know better Norm, but isn't this more true for shoe games, for single deck isn't it about +0.05 increase in EV
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SD, H17, with all two-card CD plays, about +.026%. Higher with all possible CDs. Which suggests each CD play realizes a tiny gain. And if the dealer doesn't strictly play fixed rounds, some of those plays may not be correct.
 
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The 12 v. 2-3 play is primarily based on the ratio of tens to mids (7-9). Hi-lo doesn't advise this play very well, because it only gives us the ratio of lows to highs, and the ace in this case is actually low.

Take a look at the table and see if there are a lot of paints missing, and no mids out. If so, hit it. If the table is full of eights and nines, with no paint, then stay against the 3.
 
Moo

moo321 said:
The 12 v. 2-3 play is primarily based on the ratio of tens to mids (7-9). Hi-lo doesn't advise this play very well, because it only gives us the ratio of lows to highs, and the ace in this case is actually low.

Take a look at the table and see if there are a lot of paints missing, and no mids out. If so, hit it. If the table is full of eights and nines, with no paint, then stay against the 3.
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Very smart tactic and advice.:toast:

CP
 
moo321 said:
The 12 v. 2-3 play is primarily based on the ratio of tens to mids (7-9). Hi-lo doesn't advise this play very well, because it only gives us the ratio of lows to highs, and the ace in this case is actually low.

Take a look at the table and see if there are a lot of paints missing, and no mids out. If so, hit it. If the table is full of eights and nines, with no paint, then stay against the 3.
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i am sorry but what kind of playing strategy are you offering :)? Some hybrid strategy? You just need to stick with the correct indices if you are using hi-lo or any other counting system for the hands you have otherwise you stick with BS if you don't have a counting strategy.
 
indices are the way to go.

i had this same questions a while back, and it made sense to hit if they deck was low in 10's and to stay if it was rich with them.
 
iCountNTrack said:
i am sorry but what kind of playing strategy are you offering :)? Some hybrid strategy? You just need to stick with the correct indices if you are using hi-lo or any other counting system for the hands you have otherwise you stick with BS if you don't have a counting strategy.
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I am counting. And if you have an index, that should be your baseline. But the hi-lo index isn't that powerful.

For example, take all of the twos and 3's out of a deck. Now take 4 tens out. Hi-lo would advise standing in this case, even though you should hit because it's rich in 7-9's and only poor in cards that are essentially useless (2-3's and aces).

When you are close to your index for 12 v. 2-3, look at the layout for key cards, and try to remember which cards have come out. If you can accurately remember, you will do better than the index.

Another good example is 15-16 v. T. I had a +6 TC in a pitch game one time, and got 15 v. T. I'm past the index... BUT, the crucial card is the six! I sat back and thought "have I seen any sixes?" I hadn't. So I hit, and got one of the sixes.

The question is not "what is the ratio of highs to lows" but rather, are there enough 5's and sixes that will probably win the hand if I get them, or should I allow the dealer the slim chance of busting? Hi-lo answers the first question, but only partially answers the second.



I know this sounds like voodoo, but it isn't. I promise!
 
drtomoh said:
I'm aware basic strategy is to hit a 12 vs. a 2 or 3. But does that also pertain to a three or four card 12? e.g. if I have 2,3,7 vs. dealer 2 or 3 do I still hit or stand because more small cards are out? Would the strategy change depending on the number of decks?
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The strategy only changes if all of those little cards changed the count to such a degree that indexes (such as I18) would tell you to stand.

So if the little cards made the TC +3 or +4 or something with a 12v2 or 3 then you would opt to stand.
 
moo321 said:
I know this sounds like voodoo, but it isn't. I promise!
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it's not voodoo only if you TRULY can remember with accuracy. then you are indeed correct. its why none of these counts have perfect playing efficieny! however, if you have to fudge it, stick with the index.
 
moo321 said:
I am counting. And if you have an index, that should be your baseline. But the hi-lo index isn't that powerful.

For example, take all of the twos and 3's out of a deck. Now take 4 tens out. Hi-lo would advise standing in this case, even though you should hit because it's rich in 7-9's and only poor in cards that are essentially useless (2-3's and aces).

When you are close to your index for 12 v. 2-3, look at the layout for key cards, and try to remember which cards have come out. If you can accurately remember, you will do better than the index.

Another good example is 15-16 v. T. I had a +6 TC in a pitch game one time, and got 15 v. T. I'm past the index... BUT, the crucial card is the six! I sat back and thought "have I seen any sixes?" I hadn't. So I hit, and got one of the sixes.

The question is not "what is the ratio of highs to lows" but rather, are there enough 5's and sixes that will probably win the hand if I get them, or should I allow the dealer the slim chance of busting? Hi-lo answers the first question, but only partially answers the second.



I know this sounds like voodoo, but it isn't. I promise!
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What you are describing is pretty much a multiple-parameter card counting system with a voodoo taint :). You cannot just decide whether you saw or not any 7's, 8's... You have to side count and adjust the count to the normal 1/4 deck density and compare to the index value for that particular play. This is doable for single deck but very tedious for shoe games.

We all agree that Hi-Low has a low playing efficiency because it doesn't handle variation in playing situation very well, but Hi-Low was devised for shoe games with a high betting correlation
 
iCountNTrack said:
You cannot just decide whether you saw or not any 7's, 8's...
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Sure you can. Or just look at the layout.

Again, this is all based around the index. If I'm at +7, I'm not hitting that thing, even if I think the deck is mostly ace rich and 2-4 poor. And if I'm at -3, I'm hitting.
 
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