Playing for the table vs for yourself

[Cardcounter]

I read this book called playing blackjack as a business and it would tell you what the best play was and how much it would cost you if you played the hand wrong. So when people would grown that I hit soft 18 vs a 9 I said I have to hit because I will win 9% more of my hands by hitting it out than by staying. After the hand was done I would point it out after the fact everytime the dealer made 19 or bettor. I learned the math on what every play costs me if I deviate from basic stragedy and I will only deviate from plays that cost me 5% or less especially if cards I need are dead.

 

[Licentia]

It's really not a stupid question. Probably 90% of players believe this and other things that are without merit.

The only way you can play for the table is to know the dealers hole card and the next cards out of the deck. If you can do that... PM me. :eyepatch:

Some player's actually believe the dealer affects what's dealt. One dealer is better than another they say. How preposterous is that?

Licentia

 

[Katweezel]

Duet

Well, my husband is one of those bass turds you speak of....lol He's always griping that someone is playing wrong, and screwing things up, which is why I asked. He's even done the "See.... he just screwed this all up" which is why I said I had seen it.... lol I thought I had...

Thank you all for your answers, and hopefully I can try to convince hubby that his theory is incorrect, but you know men...so stubborn..... LMAO :grin:

Ooops...... Did I say that out loud? lol

Why not get your hubby to drop by here and read a bit... If he does, I can guarantee that within a short time, he will quickly know all there is to know about playing for the table, the dealer bust card, and the Sacred Flow of Cards. After that, if might take him a little longer to discover why he is destined to be one of the millions of long-term losers out there, playing blackjack badly. Who knows what might happen? You two might form a team... of two. :cat:

 

[itakeyourmoney]

Some player's actually believe the dealer affects what's dealt. One dealer is better than another they say. How preposterous is that?

Licentia

There are dealers who are better than others -- the better the pen, the better the dealer.

Itake

 

[sabre]

There are dealers who are better than others -- the better the pen, the better the dealer.

Itake

I'll take a fast dealer over a slow dealer giving slightly better pen. Fast dealers also tend to make more mistakes.

 

[Mr. T]

Well, my husband is one of those bass turds you speak of....lol He's always griping that someone is playing wrong, and screwing things up, which is why I asked. He's even done the "See.... he just screwed this all up" which is why I said I had seen it.... lol I thought I had...

Thank you all for your answers, and hopefully I can try to convince hubby that his theory is incorrect, but you know men...so stubborn..... LMAO :grin
Ooops...... Did I say that out loud? lol

Sorry to say your husband is one of the many BJ players that make BJ unplayable to other BJ players. I dont see how he can enjoy the game himself unless he has some inferior motives. He should stop playing BJ. Enough said here already.

There are enough heated arguements and fights on the BJ tables already and he doesnt have to get into another one of these.

 

[bjhack]

To reinforce something that was said earlier - blackjack is not a team sport. Play your cards for yourself.

I'm a BS player. I find that the best spot to play is immediately right of the third base player. As a BS player, you have to time to evaluate a few things, which that position allows you to do without excessive critism (in my opinion).

Regarding BS play

• 
  You will lose over the long run, at (if you are carefull of the games you select), at about $0.50/$100 bet

• 
  You may find, as I do, that it is a reasonable entertainment value.

• Playing next to third base gives you some additional time to think, without the "ploppie pressure". Critism at that position is rarer, even though if the third base player could affect outcome, play at all other positions could as well.

• If you are a BS player, you are there because you like the game, and welcome positive social interaction with other players (which can happen). If you are a BS player and are hoping to win, you have a problem

• While AP's want a empty table (quick action, control, amongst other things), a BS player wants a full table. A full table means less hands, and a lessor rate of loss (and a potential increase/decrease in positive social interaction, depending on the table!).

• Bet the table minimum. Over the long term, you will lose at the house edge rate, and minimizing your bet will help minimize your loses.

• Set a session and trip loss limit/budget.

• Variance is a bitch (sorry for the language). You will probably underestimate the swings that you can see in your bankroll. I would not sit down at a $10 without a $300 bankroll (based on experience, not any math) if you hope to not have a significant loss at the end of the session. An example - I probably dropped $400 at our local casino in the last month, using a $100 session bankroll (I had a good "streak" before that). I went to LV a couple of weeks ago, targetting $10 tables when available. I dropped close to $300 ($270 I believe) initially (I had a $300 session budget, $1000 trip budget) before hitting a streak... I ended the (long) session $1K up. My next session ended up an additional $500, before losing $700 in the next three sessions. In my BJ history, I belive I'm on track regarding losses (i.e., $0.50/$100 bet, I need to keep beter records.. and, which I will re-emphasize will happen, you will lose - is it worth it to you).
  My sessions can be long. I have good discipline (which you need) when down; I have poor discipline when up. My winning sessions can be quite long.

• A lot of gift shops have small (credit-card sized) BS cards, which the casinos don't mind you referencing. Pick one up (for about $2, which is probably about $1.99 more than they cost to produce). They are small and readable, which is probably better than anything you can print off the internet. You just have to understand what the difference is between the card you are using(# of decks is usally main difference) and the game you are playing (which is typically not material - you would be far ahead of your typical player).

• Blackjack, even as a BS player, is the best game for the player in the casino.

Comments are welcomed!

 

[GeorgeD]

To reinforce something that was said earlier - blackjack is not a team sport. Play your cards for yourself.

I'm a BS player. I find that the best spot to play is immediately right of the third base player. As a BS player, you have to time to evaluate a few things, which that position allows you to do without excessive critism (in my opinion).

Regarding BS play

• 
  You will lose over the long run, at (if you are carefull of the games you select), at about $0.50/$100 bet

• 
  You may find, as I do, that it is a reasonable entertainment value.

• Playing next to third base gives you some additional time to think, without the "ploppie pressure". Critism at that position is rarer, even though if the third base player could affect outcome, play at all other positions could as well.

• If you are a BS player, you are there because you like the game, and welcome positive social interaction with other players (which can happen). If you are a BS player and are hoping to win, you have a problem

• While AP's want a empty table (quick action, control, amongst other things), a BS player wants a full table. A full table means less hands, and a lessor rate of loss (and a potential increase/decrease in positive social interaction, depending on the table!).

• Bet the table minimum. Over the long term, you will lose at the house edge rate, and minimizing your bet will help minimize your loses.

• Set a session and trip loss limit/budget.

• Variance is a bitch (sorry for the language). You will probably underestimate the swings that you can see in your bankroll. I would not sit down at a $10 without a $300 bankroll (based on experience, not any math) if you hope to not have a significant loss at the end of the session. An example - I probably dropped $400 at our local casino in the last month, using a $100 session bankroll (I had a good "streak" before that). I went to LV a couple of weeks ago, targetting $10 tables when available. I dropped close to $300 ($270 I believe) initially (I had a $300 session budget, $1000 trip budget) before hitting a streak... I ended the (long) session $1K up. My next session ended up an additional $500, before losing $700 in the next three sessions. In my BJ history, I belive I'm on track regarding losses (i.e., $0.50/$100 bet, I need to keep beter records.. and, which I will re-emphasize will happen, you will lose - is it worth it to you).
  My sessions can be long. I have good discipline (which you need) when down; I have poor discipline when up. My winning sessions can be quite long.

• A lot of gift shops have small (credit-card sized) BS cards, which the casinos don't mind you referencing. Pick one up (for about $2, which is probably about $1.99 more than they cost to produce). They are small and readable, which is probably better than anything you can print off the internet. You just have to understand what the difference is between the card you are using(# of decks is usally main difference) and the game you are playing (which is typically not material - you would be far ahead of your typical player).

• Blackjack, even as a BS player, is the best game for the player in the casino.

Comments are welcomed!

All good comments. I think the per hour varience at a $10 is somewhere around +$200 - $220 but I could be wrong.

For BS cards, buy them here and you will probably get more reliable cards with BS for specific games/deck numbers.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/store/blackjack/strategy-cards.html

 

[callipygian]

I think the per hour varience at a $10 is somewhere around +$200 - $220 but I could be wrong.

It really depends on your style of play. If you're Wonging in and out and spreading conservatively, one SD can be as low as 2 units/hand, and because hands/hr is low, one SD can be as low as 12 units/hr (+/- $120/hr at a $10 table). If you're playing all, spreading aggressively, and playing heads up, one SD is going to be about 3 units/hand (+/- $300/hr).

Keep in mind this is one SD - that is, 83% of the time you'll do better than -1 SD below expectation, but 17% of the time you'll do worse. That is, with the latter variance, you'll bust out of a $10 table with $300 in your pocket 1 in 6 times.

 

[blackchipjim]

Who do you play for?

The math tells you that no one affects the outcome of the cards. If you don't mind stupid comments or really weird looks always play basic strategy. The best way to avoid hassles is to avoid the third base seat if you are an advantage player. If you leave one seat open on the end you can offer it to the know it alls at your table.:laugh: blackchipjim

 

[zengrifter]

Here's how I play for the table -

From: Hole-carding + Scavenger play

Barfarkel: When our flashing dealer ended his stint the table was still filled to capacity, but The Grifter wanted to continue playing anyway, and indicated that I should watch. This table was filled with some of the worst players I’ve ever seen, but Grif had been giving them solid advice. He swung into action when the ploppy at first base picked up hard eleven. The Grifter boldly asserted, "Flip it over - we're going partners on that." He tossed the player the other half of the double down amount as the ploppy replied "Let’s ride!" They won the hand when the dealer busted.

Grif worked the table for the next hour, getting a slew of partner-doubles and splits (including tens), demonstrating what Grosjean calls "scavenger blackjack." More often than not the others he was exploiting would thank him for "sharing the risk." .... I watched the master in action as he advised everyone - the life of the party as always, as he took advantage of one of his new "table partners" who was declining insurance. The Grifter took the insurance bet and won and when the table partner asked how much he owed Grif he was told by a smiling Grifter, "all of it," whereupon the happless accomplice just shrugged and said, "better you then them because, Dude, your my advisor!" Shortly thereafter Grif colored up another 20 unit win at an otherwise unplayable table by any expert's evaluation - his style and outgoing personality allowing him to get away with things that I and most other counters would never even consider trying.
​

 

[Thunder]

here's what you do when someone questions your move

When they berate me for hitting 12 vs 3, I tell them ok I'll bet you $50 that out of 10 hands we see where the dealer has 3 and someone has 12, 6/10 times or more they will not have busted. IF they argue well the reason why you don't take the card is because the dealer is likely to bust, then bet them that the dealer won't bust 6/10 times or more. If they don't take the bet, then tell them to be quiet or else put their money where their mouth is. Usually they shut up in a hurry.

True story....
One time, this absolute ploppy gets mad at me because I hit 12 vs 3, and as it turns out the dealer would have busted if I hadn't done that. After other ploppies joined in to the point where I felt I was getting a beat down, I tell the most vocal ploppy who was berating me from the start, that's what the book says to do. He says, bs the book says that. So I calmly pull out a basic strategy guide that I've had in my wallet forever and show him. His next response just left me wondering how dumb can people really get. He sees what the guide says, and says outloud, "Well you think the casinos make that so you''ll win? They make those things so you'll lose more." To which I replied, "And do you mind telling me what on earth possessed you to think the casino made this?" He replied," Well that's who sells them." At this point, I realized reasoning with this individual was pointless, so I might as well take advantage of his sheer stupidity. I said to him, "Tell you what. I'll make a bet with you that I'll last longer at this table than you will." He hesitates a little and I say, "Otherwise you can not criticize my play." This gets him mad as he soon realizes that he was done in by his own faulty logic. So he curses and leaves the table. After that a funny thing started happening. I went on a great winning streak and suddenly the whole table had digusted looks on their faces as they realized that clearly I knew what I was doing. Nobody for the rest of the time I was at the table, said one word to me even when I hit my 12 v a dealer 6 and so on and so forth.
To play this game correctly, you have to have thick skin sometimes.

 

[Mr. T]

The math tells you that no one affects the outcome of the cards. If you don't mind stupid comments or really weird looks always play basic strategy. The best way to avoid hassles is to avoid the third base seat if you are an advantage player. If you leave one seat open on the end you can offer it to the know it alls at your table.:laugh: blackchipjim

I always play at first base only. However there are many times when it is not the guy sitting beside you that is troubled by your play but the smart ass in third base. They were observing my play and everybody else play on the table. I have been told off and the guys proclaim that nobody takes a card on the table as the next card is the dealers bust card. There are guys like that that play BJ by guessing/ knowing what the next card is. Do you want to give them an arguement or move to another table.

To the poster above you have terrific arguements but guys like that don't listen to arguements. They are the only ones making the right play. Since you are probably the only one playing BS on the table like me I am sure others on the table would screw you when you hit 16 vs7, hit soft 18 vs 10 and double soft 18 vs 6.

 

[1357111317]

When they berate me for hitting 12 vs 3, QUOTE]


When they do that say "Ok, next time I'll sell you my hand if you think its so important that I stand on it." You are making 2.50 in a neutral count on a 10 dollar bet right there.

 

[sagefr0g]

I always play at first base only. However there are many times when it is not the guy sitting beside you that is troubled by your play but the smart ass in third base. They were observing my play and everybody else play on the table. I have been told off and the guys proclaim that nobody takes a card on the table as the next card is the dealers bust card. There are guys like that that play BJ by guessing/ knowing what the next card is. Do you want to give them an arguement or move to another table.

To the poster above you have terrific arguements but guys like that don't listen to arguements. They are the only ones making the right play. Since you are probably the only one playing BS on the table like me I am sure others on the table would screw you when you hit 16 vs7, hit soft 18 vs 10 and double soft 18 vs 6.

lmao, you sound like your describing my behavior at the pre-bj-bash dream shoe.
the Stealthy Won and i were at an almost full table. some dude decided to split 10's. lmao, and i thought it would be cute (and good cover and maybe drive off some players due to my irritating behavior) to let him have it with my best 'cult of the flow of the sacred cards' stuff i could come up with.
me complaining for about three rounds about this guy having split tens, lol. it was pretty funny to me at the time, but i guess i was being a bit of a jerk. the dealer was kind of getting into. remmember that CP?:devil: