How often does a dealer cheat? Any training to spot cheaters?

Liquid Chips

Liquid Chips

Well-Known Member
In land-based casinos, how often to dealers cheat? Is there any training courses on how to spot cheating dealers?
 
There is little incentive for a dealer to cheat a player, unless he has a partner at the table where he can deal seconds or overpay hands. I'm sure some of these guys here can give tips on spotting cheaters, but to be honest... I probably wouldn't know if I'm being cheated or not. (Although there was a single time where I suspected the dealer had a confederate at the table... If they were cheating.. I couldn't tell how... (my suspicions were raised more by looks between them and some undefined tells than by the actual play)
 
In 28 years of playing blackjack for a living, I can say that I've spotted a dealer cheating a player only ONCE. There HAVE been a few other times that I've had some suspicion, but no REAL evidence other than the fact that I was losing an inordinate amount of hands.

The fact is; in ALMOST EVERY SINGLE CASE of a dealer cheating, it's a matter of the dealer cheating AGAINST the house and FOR a player. It's so rare for a dealer to knowingly cheat a player that it's something that you'd be just wasting your time & money if you were to pay someone to help you spot it.

Now it's POSSIBLE that in some small Indian casino, or in some foreign country you MIGHT have to worry about it, but I doubt even THAT.

If you really ARE worried about it, then I'd suggest that you go to the gamblers' book store. They have a number of books on how to spot a cheater; some of them written BY ex-cheaters.
 
Sucker said:
The fact is; in ALMOST EVERY SINGLE CASE of a dealer cheating, it's a matter of the dealer cheating AGAINST the house and FOR a player. It's so rare for a dealer to knowingly cheat a player that it's something that you'd be just wasting your time & money if you were to pay someone to help you spot it.
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While it's true that a cheating dealer is nearly always cheating the house in favor of a confederate, there have been instances in the past where they would also cheat other players in order to make up for the house losses to the confederate. They don't want the table stats to suggest a problem.

However, I certainly agree that it's extremely unlikely you'll run into a cheating dealer in most venues.
 
Liquid Chips said:
In land-based casinos, how often to dealers cheat? Is there any training courses on how to spot cheating dealers?
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I agree with everyone that it's quite unlikely.

One method of cheating is to short the shoe. Remove tens and aces. Less commonly (because it's easier to detect) is adding low cards.

Another is to deal seconds (the second card). If the top card is favorable, they deal it, otherwise blindly deal the second card. This requires either a marked deck, or peeking at the top card on the deck. The best way to catch peeking is by watching the dealer's eyes. If they check their watch a lot, they may be peeking.

Dealers who deal seconds may have a slightly different sound when they deal. More swishy instead of snappy. However, they will usually have a more pronounced dealing motion, so it won't be easy to spot. In fact, in all likelihood, you'd never be able to even see a second being dealt. Your best bet to catch them is to see the peak, or marked card. Or just don't play with dealers who have a flashy dealing motion that would allow them to cheat (I've left the table before over this, although I freely admit I was being paranoid.)

Another way to cheat is selectively flipping an upcard, or switching the hole card. If the dealer doesn't always flip the same card, they're probably cheating.

Another way is to control clumps of high cards and keep them at the bottom of the deck. They'll need to do false shuffles and probably be able to undo a cut in order to pull this off.

Another way is through stacked decks. Again, this can be done by using false shuffles and controlling the discards. They'll do weird things with the discards, or during the shuffle, or have marked cards in order to do this.

You can also stack the deck, or deal seconds, by shaving certain cards. For example, if the non-tens are shaved, then tens stick out a bit. Highly unlikely because it can be spotted, and provides physical evidence.

Lastly, there's preferential shuffling, which while considered legal by some idiot court, is most certainly cheating in my opinion. This involves shuffling away high counts and dealing deeply into low counts.
 
I know of two cases of dealer cheating. One was a dealer who would allow a confederate to win, but I couldn't tell you which of several ways this was done. The second was a dealer who was stealing black chips in his watch band. He had the smooth moves of a magician and that's how he became suspected and finally caught. The former cheat did it for years as far as I know and never got caught, and is in fact now a pit boss.
 
Sucker said:
In 28 years of playing blackjack for a living, I can say that I've spotted a dealer cheating a player only ONCE. There HAVE been a few other times that I've had some suspicion, but no REAL evidence other than the fact that I was losing an inordinate amount of hands.

...It's so rare for a dealer to knowingly cheat a player that it's something that you'd be just wasting your time & money if you were to pay someone to help you spot it.

Now it's POSSIBLE that in some small Indian casino, or in some foreign country you MIGHT have to worry about it, but I doubt even THAT.
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It would be very naive to conclude that just because you haven't SPOTTED a dealer cheating, you haven't been cheated. In fact, the moves of an accomplished mechanic will be all but undetectable. The most you can be certain of is that a particular dealer may be so slow or clumsy, or may use a certain style of dealing, that it allows you to rule out certain cheating moves. On the other hand, there are motions that a dealer must use to facilitate certain cheating moves, such as dealing seconds, but these are often shared by honest dealers.

While aside from preferential shuffling, which you'll have no trouble spotting, the incidence of cheating today in Las Vegas, Atlantic City, and most other major markets is probably quite low, other places may not be so safe. (I would say that it's a statistical near certainty that anyone who has been playing quite actively for 28 years has been cheated at some point.) In particular, there have been incidents of cheating, well-documented by respected APs, in a number of Indian casinos. Much of this was almost certainly at the direction of management.

If you find a game fishy, and you can't rule out the possibility of cheating, you have to consider giving up the game. For a counter playing with a small advantage, spending any time at a cheating dealer's table is dangerous to the bankroll, because the edge the house gets by cheating will dwarf the counter's usual edge. It can become especially dangerous if the game appears juicy, enticing the player to play for higher than usual stakes, when in fact it's nothing but a trap.
 
SleightOfHand said:
Unless you know how to cheat, it will be very difficult if not impossible to spot a good cheater.
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You're probably not going to spot the move, but if you have some idea of what's required to pull the move, or what results from the move, you may be able to at least get suspicious.

Like the earlier example I gave of the dealer who severely flicked his wrist every card he dealt. I left because I never could have spotted a second if he was dealing them.

Also, preferential shuffling is reasonably common, and something to avoid.
 
WRX said:
It would be very naive to conclude that just because you haven't SPOTTED a dealer cheating, you haven't been cheated. In fact, the moves of an accomplished mechanic will be all but undetectable. The most you can be certain of is that a particular dealer may be so slow or clumsy, or may use a certain style of dealing, that it allows you to rule out certain cheating moves. On the other hand, there are motions that a dealer must use to facilitate certain cheating moves, such as dealing seconds, but these are often shared by honest dealers.

While aside from preferential shuffling, which you'll have no trouble spotting, the incidence of cheating today in Las Vegas, Atlantic City, and most other major markets is probably quite low, other places may not be so safe. (I would say that it's a statistical near certainty that anyone who has been playing quite actively for 28 years has been cheated at some point.) In particular, there have been incidents of cheating, well-documented by respected APs, in a number of Indian casinos. Much of this was almost certainly at the direction of management.

If you find a game fishy, and you can't rule out the possibility of cheating, you have to consider giving up the game. For a counter playing with a small advantage, spending any time at a cheating dealer's table is dangerous to the bankroll, because the edge the house gets by cheating will dwarf the counter's usual edge. It can become especially dangerous if the game appears juicy, enticing the player to play for higher than usual stakes, when in fact it's nothing but a trap.
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I once played at a Harrah's casino in Vegas, I think it was Bally's, where the dealer at double deck just had too many hand and body moves that left me extremely suspicious. The worst part was the grip he used on the cards which I have only seen used by a bottom dealer. The grip for bottoms is so contrived that it is easily identified; it's just not natural. Bottoms, as you probably know, do not even have the telltale swishing sound of seconds. But even with seconds, with all the noise in a casino, I doubt you would ever hear it. Now I don't at all suspect Harrah's of anything, but I do not put it past a pit boss who has a hand picked crew to try something that would keep his numbers up. I know at least one pit boss who once was a dealer/cheater himself, but for personal profit, not to bolster house percentages.

PS--For pitch games, do the dealers burn a card face up under the deck? I can't remember. That would make it impossible to deal bottoms, although seconds from bottom are still possible.
 
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aslan said:
I once played at a Harrah's casino in Vegas, I think it was Bally's, where the dealer at double deck just had too many hand and body moves that left me extremely suspicious. The worst part was the grip he used on the cards which I have only seen used by a bottom dealer. The grip for bottoms is so contrived that it is easily identified; it's just not natural. Bottoms, as you probably know, do not even have the telltale swishing sound of seconds. But even with seconds, with all the noise in a casino, I doubt you would ever hear it. Now I don't at all suspect Harrah's of anything, but I do not put it past a pit boss who has a hand picked crew to try something that would keep his numbers up. I know at least one pit boss who once was a dealer/cheater himself, but for personal profit, not to bolster house percentages.

PS--For pitch games, do the dealers burn a card face up under the deck? I can't remember. That would make it impossible to deal bottoms, although seconds from bottom are still possible.
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There actually is also a sound associated with bottoms. It is a different kind of swish with actually less sound. As far as dealing seconds from the bottom, it is indeed very possible. Expert cheats are able to deal from any location in the deck including dead center, thirds, etc.
 
aslan said:
PS--For pitch games, do the dealers burn a card face up under the deck? I can't remember. That would make it impossible to deal bottoms, although seconds from bottom are still possible.
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That was the procedure used when dealers put the discards face up on the bottom of the deck, instead of into a hopper. I don't know of any casino that uses that procedure any more.

As SOH writes, a truly expert mechanic can deal middles.
 
SleightOfHand said:
There actually is also a sound associated with bottoms. It is a different kind of swish with actually less sound. As far as dealing seconds from the bottom, it is indeed very possible. Expert cheats are able to deal from any location in the deck including dead center, thirds, etc.
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I wouldn't worry about bottoms if there's a cut card. No way someone's gonna push the cut card, then deal the bottom card, without at least a good inidication that their dealing motion is REALLY off.
 
SleightOfHand said:
There actually is also a sound associated with bottoms.
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I should have said you will not be able to tell the difference, because the sound of bottoms is the same as the sound of tops. If you think otherwise, you have not come across the bottom dealers that I have. And forget about seeing it; I could not see it in slow motion. :)

PS: But I will never forget the mechanics grip used for dealing flawless bottoms. It's the only clue I have to presence of this card player's feat.
 
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aslan said:
But I will never forget the mechanics grip used for dealing flawless bottoms. It's the only clue I have to presence of this card player's feat.
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It can be done from the standard casino dealer's grip as well. The method used may also depend on if it is dealt straight or stud style (an initial card or a hit card).

-Sonny-
 
Sonny said:
It can be done from the standard casino dealer's grip as well. The method used may also depend on if it is dealt straight or stud style (an initial card or a hit card).

-Sonny-
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I hope I didn't mislead anyone into thinking there was only one way. The best I saw used a peculiar grip, but the bottom was undetectable even in slow motion.

By hit card, I take it you mean dealing seconds or possibly bottoms using an inverted wrist movement and planting or pasting the cards face up? I know seconds are undetectable in this manner, although I don't believe I ever saw it in a casino.

I did see a grip that allowed the dealer to prop the side of the top card on the side of his hand so that with a turn of the wrist he could glimpse the card index. Being he was standing high above low seated players and himself about 6 foot 4, dealing a second would have been easy as pie. I constantly stared at his hand movements, so much so, that if he had been doing or planning to do anything, I am sure he thought better of it due to my continual scrutiny. The $500 I won may be testimony to my counter measure, or just chalk it up to paranoia. lol
 
Richard Turner

If you want to see almost every possible cheating technique that has to do with shuffling, cutting, dealing, watch Richard Turner's The Cheat. The DVD menus are pretty terrible, but his skill is unsurpassed. He is legally blind and practices as a magician/stage machanic. Very impressive skills. He named his son Asa Spades Turner omg lol.
 
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