full time blackjack

[assume_R]

Not sure where you live that the pizza delivery boys make $20/hour. That would be 40 grand a year. Yeah maybe 1 hour per night if they make 4 deliveries and have a couple extra nice tips they might clear $20, but certainly not on average.

There is a reason, why someone would spread $10-$80 and that would be bankroll limitations. While a spread like this and making $20 per hour doesn't appeal to you (and me either at this point), it could be a step up for someone in a different situaion.

Only a few years ago, I was playing that level and even spreading less due to bankroll limitations, and yes I was making far less than $20 an hour at the beginning, but it was a stepping stone to a higher level of play. I don't think it made me or anyone else at that level an "idiot". :sad: There is no shame in beginning modestly and working and growing your way to a higher level. Now if one's efforts to make a living find him remaining at that level of play for any length of time, I would agree that he may need to re-evaluate his game plan.

kewljason, I know you make your living off of AP, and I was wondering if you ever considered poker with all the ample opportunities for good poker situations in vegas?

 

[mjbballar23]

Okay, wow, so according to your figures each session has maybe 2 standard deviations of +/- $700, or 1 standard deviation of $350 per 1.75 hours, or $200 per hour of standard deviation. That is significantly better than blackjack. I've always wondered if I should pick up and learn poker.

Ya for me there really is no comparison. However, It took me probably 6 months of losing/breaking even before I started winning. This high learning curve is what drives so many people away from the game. The committment to poker really needs to be an academic pursuit and long-term in nature imo.

 

[assume_R]

Ya for me there really is no comparison. However, It took me probably 6 months of losing/breaking even before I started winning. This high learning curve is what drives so many people away from the game. The committment to poker really needs to be an academic pursuit and long-term in nature imo.

Well if I were to begin in poker, I would dedicate as much time learning it as I have this past year learning blackjack.

Oh, and sorry for the thread hijacking here

 

[blackriver]

You don't seem to be looking for helpful posts, you seem to be looking for a pat on the back. You've gotten helpful posts and seemed to ignore the advice given. Sometimes the truth hurts. If you're simply looking for positive reinforcement to validate the errors of your ways then you'll probably get just what you deserve. When someone tells you you won't be able to play black chips all the time, take heed! Don't argue and look for a second opinion from someone who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about but agrees with you.

This post is describes exactly the opposite of what one should take from the post just above it that says "thank you, this is what i need" to a person telling me to red chip for a while

 

[blackriver]

Honestly, Creeping Panther made a good point. It's definitely not what you want to hear, but the fact is that if you have to ask these questions, you're absolutely not ready to play blackjack on a full-time basis. If you're a poker grinder, you're at least familiar with the swings, but if you've been grinding 5 years, your edge is likely much larger than it would be with blackjack. Your swings can get really out of control.

Also, you seem confused about the ratings process. For those with larger bankrolls, getting the money isn't the hard part—being able to continue to get the money is. If you don't understand how ratings, back-offs, and barrings work, you will not survive.

I understand the whole red-chip thing, and to be honest, I agree with you. I wouldn't pay professionally unless I was making at least the amount of hourly expectation that I get from my other work. I work for myself, so I get to decide what I do and don't do depending on how much my time is worth. On the other hand, I've put in my dues with plenty of hours of red-chipping when I started out. This was not to make money; rather, it was to develop my skills so that I could eventually move up.

My best recommendation would be to learn everything you can about the realities of full-time play before you start. Then make sure you can actually play before deciding to move up in stakes and play full-time.

However, since I get the feeling that you're probably going to ignore most advice that isn't telling you what you want to hear, maybe these tips will be helpful:

- Be prepared to lose a large portion or all of your bankroll
- Play in Vegas with a $25 min unit and spread like crazy
- Keep your sessions under an hour
- Play unrated—I think you misunderstood pit15 when he said that showing ID != being rated. The "!=" means "does not equal." If you get ID'd, it might be because you have to prove that you're of legal gambling age. This doesn't necessarily mean that your name is being associated with you current gambling, and certainly not your gambling history, like your rating would be.
- Learn how backoffs work—what causes them, how to see them coming, how to avoid them next time. If you're full-time, you need to be an expert on this because it's your job security.

Im glad my whine/bump got me this post. Im deffinitely still confused about the ratings situation. I think ive given my id and they just went ahead and rated me anyway, i think they even made me a new card. (On anothr occasion someone in PA took my driver license and litterally disappeared for an hour. That place is awful though.)

what do you mean spread like crazy? i have been seeing people talking about spreading 1-20+ a lot lately which i thought would suicide. I spread 1-16 and occasionally more at rare counts and my 2 counter friends think this is out of line.

Also i though ive seen 2 times where someone implied that playing high limits without getting rated would get you even more heat. Doesnt matter cause your anon?

as far as avoiding back offs while playing black, ill listen to anything you have to say.

 

[blackriver]

Ive played as a counter of some sort for 2.5 years. Ive probably played 2-300 hours and made a little over $100/hour before taxes.

i should have included some credentials or asked for a hypothetical circuit for a hypothetical person with such credentials. I was hoping someone would suggest one followed by a few posts of people suggesting a few other places to go or avoid. With a few miscelaneous posts including information such as how to not get backed off, etc.

Should i start another thread that way? either way if anyone wants to chime in on that question please be my guest.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

You don't have to give any casino employee your ID, ever. You can show it to them if they need to check your age, but they don't need to take it into the pit (at which point they probably will rate you and give you a player's card if you don't already have one). When you play as a refusal, just tell them you don't want a player's card. If they ask for ID, you can show it to them, but there's no reason for them to take it into their possession. These aren't cops, they're just employees of a casino.

I say you should spread like crazy because it will be the best way to maximize your profit. If you're playing nickels, a 1-16 spread might save you. If you're playing heavy green/black and spreading 1-16 with the count, you're eventually going to find yourself unwelcome anyway. It would be wise to spread more so that you can save money in low/neutral counts. Wonging out is also helpful. I've regularly spread between 1-40 and 1-60 at nickel games in the past with no heat during short sessions. On some of these games, my EV has been over $75/hr. The same doesn't necessarily apply to bigger games, but neither does the opposite advice to spread small. Just because the books say that 1-12 is safe doesn't mean it is; once the big money's on the felt, they'll watch you no matter what.

And yes, you'll raise more suspicion playing as a refusal if you're playing mid/high limits. If you insist on playing black only, you'll be playing in a lot of high-limit pits where you're automatically under scrutiny anyway. It seems to me like a better approach would be to play quarters, spread like a maniac ($25-2x$400 is alright, but hey, if you think your act is good...), and avoid HL pits. Play short, unrated session, and heat be damned. If/when they bust you, stay away from that shift for a couple of months, play at a different casino down the road, etc. They don't have your name, which is a big edge for you and is the key to this type of strategy.

As for avoiding backoffs, learn to notice the warning signs. The easy part is counting cards and making the right bets and plays. The hard part is pulling it off. Pay attention to what people are doing in the pit. Pay attention to body language. If the phone rings, try to eavesdrop or at least see where the person on the phone is directing their attention by way of inadvertent gaze. Pay attention to the mood of the boss/floor. Watch for backs purposefully turned to you. Notice the whereabouts of security, suits, or other personnel standing in the pit or, more alarmingly, behind your table. Sometimes there's nothing you can do, but sometimes you can see the axe coming if you're alert and paying attention. Hope that helps.

 

[pit15]

Not sure where you live that the pizza delivery boys make $20/hour. That would be 40 grand a year. Yeah maybe 1 hour per night if they make 4 deliveries and have a couple extra nice tips they might clear $20, but certainly not on average.

There is a reason, why someone would spread $10-$80 and that would be bankroll limitations. While a spread like this and making $20 per hour doesn't appeal to you (and me either at this point), it could be a step up for someone in a different situaion.

Only a few years ago, I was playing that level and even spreading less due to bankroll limitations, and yes I was making far less than $20 an hour at the beginning, but it was a stepping stone to a higher level of play. I don't think it made me or anyone else at that level an "idiot". :sad: There is no shame in beginning modestly and working and growing your way to a higher level. Now if one's efforts to make a living find him remaining at that level of play for any length of time, I would agree that he may need to re-evaluate his game plan.

Right, but you weren't trying to make a living off it.

Huge difference. OP says he wants to play full time. Anybody who plays full time at the red chip level is wasting their time.

If you're making < $20 / hour, you'll struggle to pay the bills, let alone increase your bankroll.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Another point on that topic: KJ is lucky in that he was able to cut his teeth on East Coast games and only move onto Vegas games once he had a bigger roll to utilize. An overlooked problem with red-chipping is exposure. James Grosjean has made this point a few times, but I never see anyone mentioning it.

For someone to start out at the red chip level with the intent to build that roll up to eventually play higher means that they'll need to put in hundreds of hours of table time at low limits to build a bankroll. This means TONS of exposure. If you play rated (as most red-chippers do), you might be on the casino's naughty list long before you have a chance to hit them with a larger bankroll. It's a catch-22 unless you start your career with a larger bankroll.

 

[kewljason]

Right, but you weren't trying to make a living off it.

Huge difference. OP says he wants to play full time. Anybody who plays full time at the red chip level is wasting their time.

If you're making < $20 / hour, you'll struggle to pay the bills, let alone increase your bankroll.

Actually, I was making a living on it at the time. I played fulltime red chip for 4 years. My first 3 years of playing blackjack for a living were rather thin. My second year was less that 10 grand. Even with very minimal expenses and a roommate to share them, it was slow going. It took me 2+ years to grow my BR from initial 4 grand to 5 figures. lol

 

[21gunsalute]

This post is describes exactly the opposite of what one should take from the post just above it that says "thank you, this is what i need" to a person telling me to red chip for a while

No, you need to hear and listen to truth, which may not always be what you want to hear. The pros here are giving you this advice because they want to help you, not to massage your ego and your psyche, which seems to be more of what you're actually looking for.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Actually, I was making a living on it at the time. I played fulltime red chip for 4 years. My first 3 years of playing blackjack for a living were rather thin. My second year was less that 10 grand. Even with very minimal expenses and a roommate to share them, it was slow going. It took me 2+ years to grow my BR from initial 4 grand to 5 figures. lol

Yeah, I know you played full-time back then, but you weren't risking exposure at AC games since you wouldn't be barred. For a red-chipper to try and build a BR in Vegas, they would have to play a lot of the places that they would play as they move up in stakes, and in the process give the casinos a good chance to make them as an AP.

 

[kewljason]

Yeah, I know you played full-time back then, but you weren't risking exposure at AC games since you wouldn't be barred. For a red-chipper to try and build a BR in Vegas, they would have to play a lot of the places that they would play as they move up in stakes, and in the process give the casinos a good chance to make them as an AP.

That's true. good point. LG So you are saying there aren't red chip players running around vegas scratching out a living? or supplementing some sort of partial income like social security? I figured there probably where. I know a couple poker "pro's" barely making (and sometimes not) ends meet, so I figured there were a few BJ types doing likewise.

 

[pit15]

Actually, I was making a living on it at the time. I played fulltime red chip for 4 years. My first 3 years of playing blackjack for a living were rather thin. My second year was less that 10 grand. Even with very minimal expenses and a roommate to share them, it was slow going. It took me 2+ years to grow my BR from initial 4 grand to 5 figures. lol

I would kill myself if I was making $10 - $20 / hour at the tables. I could easily make more then that with a "real" job, without the variance.

Hell, you'd be better off working FOR the casino. And before you balk at that about how you'd never work for a casino, consider the fact you learn a lot of inside info by working there. I would LOVE to know how they schedule dealers on what games they work, and what surveillance looks for on a skills check, and what the pit looks for before calling a skills check.

If I was offered a job in surveillance at a casino I would take it in a heartbeat. I would learn as much as I can, get all the info I can, spend my time scouting their dealers to identify profitable games for future reference, then leave and come back in a few months with all the info I need to AP at the joint and hit them hard.

Same goes if I got a job in the pit. I'd probably tell APs to stay off my pit for my shift since I wouldn't want to lose my job before I gather all the info I want, but I could care less if they start playing the minute I'm gone.

 

[pit15]

That's true. good point. LG So you are saying there aren't red chip players running around vegas scratching out a living? or supplementing some sort of partial income like social security? I figured there probably where. I know a couple poker "pro's" barely making (and sometimes not) ends meet, so I figured there were a few BJ types doing likewise.

There's tons of failed APs for every successful one.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

KJ, I'm sure there are plenty of grinders ekeing out $10/hr, but my point was just that they may be hurting themselves if they ever intend to move up due to exposure.

 

[kewljason]

KJ, I'm sure there are plenty of grinders ekeing out $10/hr, but my point was just that they may be hurting themselves if they ever intend to move up due to exposure.

I gotch ya, LG.

 

[paddywhack]

KJ, I'm sure there are plenty of grinders ekeing out $10/hr, but my point was just that they may be hurting themselves if they ever intend to move up due to exposure.

I agree with that too. Working up the ranks and building a bankroll takes forever if you start from scratch. Lots of hours at the same stores makes you well known. Have no choice but to move on once you move up in stakes unless those joints won't sweat the higher action.

 

[yesiamred]

I think you need a partner

Wow, I would love to travel...I could be your spotter

 

[blackjacktilt]

From grinding mid/highstakes poker online for 5 years. Still doing good.




Stick to poker bro, seriously. You will make more money.