Playing anon. in high limit rooms

ArcticInferno said:
Large majority of ploppies in the high limit room play basic strategy, and enough
of them play basic strategy that the “skills check” has very little meaning.
What if you do play basic strategy without errors? So what?!
Also, you can ask the dealer or the floor supervisor if you should hit A7 vs T.
They will usually say, “According to the book,...”
I started out playing red, and eventually graduated to green, and now I only play black in the high limit room.
I *never* play rated. I don’t even own a players card.
I always play two hands of $200 each, for total of $400, on the first round.
I spread to 2x$400, and ultimately to 2x$600. I rarely go to 2x$800 because it’s unnecessary.
If the count drops below zero, I reduce to 2x$100 or 1x$100.
I wong out if the count plummets into the abyss.
I never play at a full table. Ideal condition is one or two other players at the table.
Surprisingly, this low spread is extremely profitable.
The yield is low in terms of "units", but very high in terms of absolute dollars.
In about 10 hrs, I can average about $4k-$8k.
The key is a healthy propensity to wong out.
I would advise you to be well capitalized. You should have $10k or $15k with you.
Click to expand...

What are your time limits per session? And do you also play when the High-Limit room is totally dead and empty.
 
I believe that you could win $600/h

ArcticInferno said:
I don’t want to start a firestorm, and I don’t want to get into an argument,...
Playing two hands of $200 in each hand is different from playing one hand of $400.
Playing two hands of $200 is like playing one hand of $200 but at twice the rate.
Imagine playing at two tables at once, and playing one hand of $200 at each table.
I know that a lot of you may disagree, and site variance and other things.
But the truth is, playing two hands is like playing at twice the speed.
Click to expand...

if the game is good and you Wong out. As you described, it is like $100 per unit and spreading close to 1 to 9 (considering two hands of 6 units each). Your luck (positive variance) probably has something to do with your win rate. Most people have an average win rate of 2 units/h. It is rare though that you could find a place to play for 10 hours without rating and letting you cashing out 6k without problem. Most HL places that I know would insist to have me rated. May be you are in a blackjack heaven. PM me where you play if you don't mind. good luck!
 
peaegg said:
if the game is good and you Wong out. As you described, it is like $100 per unit and spreading close to 1 to 9 (considering two hands of 6 units each). Your luck (positive variance) probably has something to do with your win rate. Most people have an average win rate of 2 units/h. It is rare though that you could find a place to play for 10 hours without rating and letting you cashing out 6k without problem. Most HL places that I know would insist to have me rated. May be you are in a blackjack heaven. PM me where you play if you don't mind. good luck!
Click to expand...

Here's an example.
Borgata has two high limit rooms, and the area outside the first high limit room is usually $100 on weekends, so I have three places to roam.
I can spend about 10 hrs at Borgata and stay under the radar with a good act.
I might visit Caesars or Trump, but usually don't need to.
Here's another example.
I can go from Harrah's Chester, Sugarhouse, and Parx in one day and average about 10 hrs total.
 
paddywhack said:
Nothing wrong here. Just stating that what appeared to be an obvious statement by zg was there in your post.

You do seem to like to escalate things. No offense was meant. Hope this doesn't turn into another bj21 rant.
Click to expand...

Another bj21 rant? LOL!
Unless you got ignorant bitches who worship you and will embarrass themselves on your behalf. LOL.
No, I don't like to escalate things.
Sorry if my post came across a bit "abrasive".
 
Solo player said:
What are your time limits per session? And do you also play when the High-Limit room is totally dead and empty.
Click to expand...

An empty room is usually not best, although I've done it.
The high limit rooms usually have a crowd on weekends.
I usually spend about 1 to 3 hrs per session, and then walk around, and then come back.
If your act is good, then you can stay for more than 3 hrs.
At Harrah's Chester, I stayed for over 6 hrs straight, with some breaks for food.
If you're constantly distracted by other things, talk to other players, and ask the dealer lots of questions, etc., you'll stay under the radar.
The key is, when the floor supervisor speaks to you, stare directly into her/his eyes and give a lengthy response. Do *not* glance at the table! Lose the count and let it go. It's a small sacrifice.
 
ArcticInferno said:
Large majority of ploppies in the high limit room play basic strategy, and enough
of them play basic strategy that the “skills check” has very little meaning.
What if you do play basic strategy without errors? So what?!
Also, you can ask the dealer or the floor supervisor if you should hit A7 vs T.
They will usually say, “According to the book,...”
I started out playing red, and eventually graduated to green, and now I only play black in the high limit room.
I *never* play rated. I don’t even own a players card.
I always play two hands of $200 each, for total of $400, on the first round.
I spread to 2x$400, and ultimately to 2x$600. I rarely go to 2x$800 because it’s unnecessary.
If the count drops below zero, I reduce to 2x$100 or 1x$100.
I wong out if the count plummets into the abyss.
I never play at a full table. Ideal condition is one or two other players at the table.
Surprisingly, this low spread is extremely profitable.
The yield is low in terms of "units", but very high in terms of absolute dollars.
In about 10 hrs, I can average about $4k-$8k.
The key is a healthy propensity to wong out.
I would advise you to be well capitalized. You should have $10k or $15k with you.
Click to expand...

Your rapid escalation from red chip player to now playing black 2 hands of $200 to 2 hands of $600 and occasionally 2 hands of $800, is astonishing, Inferno.

When you joined the site in Sept 09, your first two posts were "why don't we split 10's and then double" and "why don't we split 99 vs 7". Nothing wrong with asking the questions, but I bring it up because they certainly indicate you were a newbie at the time. A month later, on Oct 4, 2009, you wrote about spreading $25 to a top bet of $100. You were using hi-lo lite at the time. On April 30, 2010, you mentioned that you still played hi-lo "with great success". So it appears that in the last 9 months you have gone from a level one count to a level 3 count. Nothing wrong with that. I personally don't see the need for that, but that's another discussion. :rolleyes: What I find astonishing is that your top wager has gone from $100 to now 2x$600 and occasionally 2x$800 in this brief time. More intriguing is the bankroll that would be necessary to play those limits. I find it difficult to believe that you built that bankroll from BJ earning, as it took me 5 years to build my BR from a level that could support red units to a level that could support green units, spreading to black play and two years later I am still at that green/black level. :confused: Did you add some outside money or lottery winnings...:laugh: to your bankroll in the last year. :)
 
i'm sure...just as there are varying degrees of experience, intelligence, expertise, and probably BS among members of this board, there is also varying degrees of WEALTH and willingness to risk it (aka balls)
 
Hey Kewljason,
I forgot what my original bankroll was, which was and is irrelevant.
I won a little over $100k in 2010, which I guess is the new bankroll. Or is it?
Bankroll isn't a box of cash under the bed. It's not something physical or tangible.
Bankroll is a number on the Excel spreadsheet. Sometimes not even that.
Bankroll is a nebulous range of numbers in your head that varies from day to day.
Whether it’s replenishable or not is also subject to your “mood”.
On the other hand, if you own a corporation or a business, then the loan and the
capital determine the parameters, but blackjack is different.
Part-time blackjack as a side interest is very flexible.
You can determine (calculate) your bankroll *backwards*.
This is how.
Are you “comfortable” with betting 2x$200 and spreading to 2x$700?
If yes, then run the math backwards to see what the bankroll must be.
Do you have that kind of cash as your bankroll? If yes, then that’s your bankroll.
If you prefer 1x$25 to 2x$150 instead, then do the math and calculate your
bankroll for that.

Do I use the money from the winnings for personal needs? That’s an interesting
question.
I have a job which pays the bills. My earnings from the job and the blackjack
winnings all go into the same bank account, which I draw from to pay the bills.
I log my blackjack winnings in the Excel spreadsheet and deposit the cash.
Money is money, and once it’s deposited, it’s a number, so how do I know
whether I used the “blackjack money” to buy lunch?

If I were to lose $100k right now, did I lose my bankroll, or did I lose my
previous winnings? What happened to the original bankroll that I don’t even
remember? It’s all relative to the perspective.
If I lose the bankroll and the previous winnings, I can walk away and live happily
ever after. Having a job makes such attitude possible.

The difficulty that you’re facing is that your livelihood depends on blackjack,
so you can’t take great risks and jump your level of play.
Also, as you fill the bucket with your blackjack winnings, the water slowly drains
out of a hole in the bottom (bills, food, rent, clothes, etc.), which makes filling
the bucket higher more difficult.

In the recent past, 5 casinos opened up in PA, which almost doubled the playing field,
and I think a larger grazing area definitely had a significant contribution.

As I drive out to the casino in the morning, I have about $25k -$35k in the car.
I carry on me about $15k as I walk into the casino. I have never lost more than $25k
in a day, and I have never been down more than $30k in a stretch without bouncing
back rapidly. One time I went from $20k down to $15k up, which is a $35k swing in
one day!

Back when I started, I went to Hooters across the street from MGM Grand because
Hooters had $5 blackjack. LOL! Now, I only play at high-end casinos.
I have without a doubt hit a wall in the blackjack progression, because of the whole
issue regarding the ID. Without being rated, I can’t advance to purple/orange level.
If you play blackjack part-time without being rated, then $500k/yr is probably the
maximum. And since you must play unrated to make that kind of cash, I guess the
absolute limit, sort of like the speed of light, is $500k/yr (part-time).
 
ArcticInferno said:
Now, I only play at high-end casinos.
I have without a doubt hit a wall in the blackjack progression, because of the whole
issue regarding the ID. Without being rated, I can’t advance to purple/orange level.
If you play blackjack part-time without being rated, then $500k/yr is probably the
maximum. And since you must play unrated to make that kind of cash, I guess the
absolute limit, sort of like the speed of light, is $500k/yr (part-time).
Click to expand...
Why do you insist on playing unrated, if that is holding you back from playing even higher limits?
 
21forme said:
Why do you insist on playing unrated, if that is holding you back from playing even higher limits?
Click to expand...

I wish I could confront the great Ian Anderson.
On page 253 of “Burning the Tables in Las Vegas”, he states that a cumulative winnings
of $150k - $250k draws unwanted attention from the upper management.
I beg to differ.
Blackjack is a game that’s rigged against the players, and the casinos subsist on your losings.
If you play hundreds of hours over months and years, and you win/lose zero, you will
surely be tagged as persona non grata.
Ratings keep track of how much you win and lose, in addition to the average bet and the
length of time.
For comp purposes, the average bet and the length of time is important.
However, if you lose $1 over six months, then something’s wrong!
The floor supervisor keeps track of purple/orange chips, so you can’t mouse them.
How many black chips can you mouse before your pockets bulge out looking funny?
No, I’m not happy to see Bob the lucky dealer.
To answer your question, playing rated will tag me as an AP in one month.
If you play big money, then you must play unrated, unless you can cycle through new
ID’s on a regular basis. Actually that’s my goal.
Foxwoods has an ultra-high limit room where no mortals are allowed to tread.
I’ve never been inside, so I don’t even know what it looks like. Is it on the second
floor of Pequot?
It must be like the Mansion in MGM Grand in Las Vegas.
My ultimate goal is to go there with a players card and give a go with purple/orange
action.
 
Post 30

Arctic makes some good points in Post 30 that makes one think,,, such as the work and bankroll subject, but $500k part time,,,hmmmm, ya gotta bet in the purple and up, beyond black...still........it would be nice.:)

CP
 
ArcticInferno said:
To answer your question, playing rated will tag me as an AP in one month.
Click to expand...
Very astute observation. I need to mull over this pearl for a while. I am not at the point of playing large like you, but I am at the point of playing only unrated. Even playing red and green rated will get you tagged after enough time, but considerably more than a month, no matter how good you mask your play.
 
Last edited:
Arctic

ArcticInferno said:
I wish I could confront the great Ian Anderson.
On page 253 of “Burning the Tables in Las Vegas”, he states that a cumulative winnings
of $150k - $250k draws unwanted attention from the upper management.
I beg to differ.
Blackjack is a game that’s rigged against the players, and the casinos subsist on your losings.
If you play hundreds of hours over months and years, and you win/lose zero, you will
surely be tagged as persona non grata.
Ratings keep track of how much you win and lose, in addition to the average bet and the
length of time.
For comp purposes, the average bet and the length of time is important.
However, if you lose $1 over six months, then something’s wrong!
The floor supervisor keeps track of purple/orange chips, so you can’t mouse them.
How many black chips can you mouse before your pockets bulge out looking funny?
No, I’m not happy to see Bob the lucky dealer.
To answer your question, playing rated will tag me as an AP in one month.
If you play big money, then you must play unrated, unless you can cycle through new
ID’s on a regular basis. Actually that’s my goal.
Foxwoods has an ultra-high limit room where no mortals are allowed to tread.
I’ve never been inside, so I don’t even know what it looks like. Is it on the second
floor of Pequot?
It must be like the Mansion in MGM Grand in Las Vegas.
My ultimate goal is to go there with a players card and give a go with purple/orange
action.
Click to expand...

Artic, just do it, live the life, fear not, live the dream.

For me,,I just wanna invite to the Playboy Mansion:grin:

CP
 
Yes Inferno, CP is correct, you do make some good points. I am not sure about your figure of $500K a year on a part time basis. Not from counting anyway, I think that is out of reach unless you are using some advanced methods of AP.

The problem is that the higher your level of play, the less time, you are able to play. I don't use time as a measurement of play, opting for an estimate of hands played instead but for sake of this discussion, lets say one plays 1500 hours per year playing green unit spreading to black, say $25-$400. Now the player decides to bump up his action and spread from $100-$1200. There will be fewer places that take that action and more scrutiny and he isn't going to be able to get in the same time played. Probably couldn't get in 1000 hours. Now when he spreads 4 or 5 hundred to several thousand, he will have even less places to place and probably will be lucky to get in a few hundred hours. So as his earnings per hour go up, the hours that he can actually play will diminish, making reaching these kinds of goals ($500K) next to impossible except on paper.
 
ArcticInferno said:
If you play hundreds of hours over months and years, and you win/lose zero, you will
surely be tagged as persona non grata.
Ratings keep track of how much you win and lose, in addition to the average bet and the
length of time.

Foxwoods has an ultra-high limit room where no mortals are allowed to tread.
I’ve never been inside, so I don’t even know what it looks like. Is it on the second
floor of Pequot?
It must be like the Mansion in MGM Grand in Las Vegas.
My ultimate goal is to go there with a players card and give a go with purple/orange
action.
Click to expand...
If you are a regular at any casino, even if you play unrated, they assign a "name" to you in their system, especially if you're a HL player. So, I think they will get you either way, rated or not.

Re FW, IIRC, their ultra high limit room is on the 17th, or maybe 21st floor. They also have a Diamond-like Lounge on 17. My memory may be off on the exact floor as it's been several years since I've been to FW.
 
purple action will trigger CTRs

ArcticInferno said:
To answer your question, playing rated will tag me as an AP in one month.
If you play big money, then you must play unrated, unless you can cycle through new ID’s on a regular basis. Actually that’s my goal.
Click to expand...

Arctic, You made some good points. I wish that I could play unrated in HL room. I don't know if I am totally agree with your game plan, although I found you are brave. I am a part timer with a bankroll similar to yours. You made me think if I should change my game.

One additional problem playing purple will be CTRs. Not only at the cage but also at the table when you buy in. Fake ID is an idea but risky. You will be noticed once they find the ss# does not match. At that point, they may not know your true identity but they should have your picture on file. With this level of action, eyes including those upstairs will be all over you. I believe you are playing a strong game. Since it is part time, may be you could find a balance between longevity and the max win per hour or per year.
 
21forme said:
If you are a regular at any casino, even if you play unrated, they assign a "name" to you in their system, especially if you're a HL player. So, I think they will get you either way, rated or not.

Re FW, IIRC, their ultra high limit room is on the 17th, or maybe 21st floor. They also have a Diamond-like Lounge on 17. My memory may be off on the exact floor as it's been several years since I've been to FW.
Click to expand...

You're probably right.
I won’t be able to prevent their efforts, but I can still delay their efforts,
and that’s good enough considering the expanded grazing arena.
Also, the passage of time has an amazing detergent effect of erasing memory.
 
Kewljason, you’re absolutely right. As I advanced to higher limits, the playing ground
became much smaller. The Hiltons or Marina don’t concern me anymore. Also, I can
only play at peak times on weekends. However, it has made my time more efficient.
Sort of like a stealth bomber attacking high-value targets. I optimize my time on the
blackjack floors. Since I have a “legitimate” job, and an enthusiasm for snowboarding,
golfing, football, etc., I don’t have to devote as much time to blackjack anymore.
I still do lots of reading, studying, running simulations, etc.

By the way, on a side note, the paper by MathProf published on 05/29/2003 (Advanced
Insurance Play in 21: Risk Aversion and Composition-Dependence), that iCountNTrack
so affectionately defends, is a piece of trash, and has no value in scientific arena. It’s
a clear example of misguided efforts by pseudo-intellectuals when they’re driven by
impulse and emotions rather than logic and rationale.
 
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