hi-lo ace side count

flyingwind

flyingwind

Well-Known Member
I'm sure this has been posted before, and I don't mean to pester everyone. Can someone please provide a quick explanation or link as to whether ace side counting combined with hi-lo is useful and how I can apply it in shoes, SD, and DD? thanks.
 
Aces are not the best card to side count in HILO. I believe the 7 would be best. Side counting aces helps determine your true probability of BJ as opposed to just the ratio of T and aces to low cards. The richer in aces the deck the more likely a BJ for the same TC in HILO. Aces are also important in playing decisions but they are already incorporated in the count so the gain is smaller than an ace neutral count. If you use ace neutral count instead of HILO the ace side count becomes invaluable in playing decisions and betting decisions as well as insurance.
 
tthree said:
Aces are not the best card to side count in HILO. I believe the 7 would be best. Side counting aces helps determine your true probability of BJ as opposed to just the ratio of T and aces to low cards. The richer in aces the deck the more likely a BJ for the same TC in HILO. Aces are also important in playing decisions but they are already incorporated in the count so the gain is smaller than an ace neutral count. If you use ace neutral count instead of HILO the ace side count becomes invaluable in playing decisions and betting decisions as well as insurance.
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How do you use the information of side-counting 7s?
 
Gramazeka said:
Green Chip: Card Counting
Ace Side Count Methods for playing insurance

Posted By: Cacarulo on 21 May 01, 2:10 pm
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I removed this re-post of Cacarulo's post from BJ21's Green Chip area. If you get Cacarulo to send me a message with permission to repost, I'll restore it.
 
SW covers ace side counting for hi lo in Professional Blackjack on page 119.

He suggest it's worth about 0.1 bets/hour and is valuable for insurance and other playing strategy. He also has an ace nuetral indices in the appendix C for single and multiple deck games.

Bet sizing it still based on true count.
 
Zach Black said:
He also has an ace nuetral indices in the appendix C for single and multiple deck games.

Bet sizing it still based on true count.
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FOR ACE NEUTRAL COUNTS. Before the TC is determined the RC is adjusted by the number of surplus aces times the point count assigned to ten value cards. If aces are in deficit rather than surplus this is a negative adjustment.

It is true that betting is still based on the true count, the TC for betting is not the RC/number of decks remaining but the RC adjusted for aces/number of decks remaining.

HILO IS NOT ACE NEUTRAL.

I don not use hilo, get someone who does to instruct you on hand to hand match up index adjustments for hilo with 7 side count.
 
thanks everyone. I'll need some time to digest this and figure it out, then it'll be time for DHL express. thanks for pointing the way.
 
Such as the simple combination of adding more indices and playing longer and
faster. Compounded daily increase could easily equal 50% more daily EV. zg
 
As someone who logged about 400 hours with Hi Opt II + side-counting aces, I can tell you that the extra mental fatigue/slow down is generally NOT worth it. After switching to Zen, which includes aces and is only tenths of a percent weaker than HO II + sidecount, I can tell you that the advantage of faster play and less mental fatigue made my play much more profitable overall. It was like night and day, and I have never looked back. Everyone's brain is different however, and to someone else (perhaps those whose play equates that fraction of a percent to a significant chunk over an extended period of a time), the extra work might be worth it.

It's really all about finding what strategy makes YOU (not a simulation) the most profit based on YOUR abilities. I have gone through 5 counts since I first sat down at a blackjack table.
 
i would switch to a count that encourages side counts. the effort is not worth it for hi lo

rather, hiopt 2 would be better. hiopt 1 gets a bad rep, because it performs poorly, but that is because people forget it was meant to be played with both an ace and 7 side count.

as a rule of thumb, side counts increase your PE, playing efficiency, or how often your going to do the right thing (hit instead of stand, etc.) your count now, simple hilo, has a great BC, betting correlation, which tells you how much to bet before the hand is dealt. after that, the PE, or what to do with your hand, is lower, around .53 i believe. a side count increases your PE (think about it. aces very rarely cause you to bust. but using them to determine what to do, instead of what to bet, is less efficient. thus the need for sidecounts.)

because many people here recommended you switch systems, here is a software to help you compare systems. it allows you to change rules, number of decks, etc.

http://www.qfit.com/cvcxonlineviewer.htm
 
Effort

For all the effort you may put forth into level 2 or 3 counts I would suggest delving deeply into STing.

Hi-Lo-Lo in DD games, when used for betting and a few deviations in play with the ace side count, gives an excellent combination of HP and Torque to your game with no fatique or added chance of errors.:cool:

CP
 
creeping panther said:
Hi-Lo-Lo in DD games, when used for betting and a few deviations in play with the ace side count, gives an excellent combination of HP and Torque to your game with no fatique or added chance of errors.:cool:

CP
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Still waiting to hear your full description of this system, how you use the Ace sidecount.
 
21forme said:
Still waiting to hear your full description of this system, how you use the Ace sidecount.
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It should not be hard to figure out. Aces in the primary count is why HILO has weaknesses. The incredibly strong counts where HILO is weak use an ace side count for betting and playing certain hand match ups. HILO doesn't need much of an ace adjustment for betting (some would make it stronger when aces are very extremely (under/over)represented) but it needs a ton of help for many more hand match ups than an ace neutral count. You just need to determine what a surplus ace is worth as an adjustor for given match ups. It sounds like someone put in the effort and CP is very impressed.
 
Having used Hi-Lo with an ace side count, I can tell you it's very valuable in the sense that it won't have you putting out the big bets when the aces aren't there and can help you immensely for insurance purposes. Case in point. Just last week I had a +2 TC with 3 decks left but there were only 4 aces left! When the dealer got one of them, do you think I put down insurance even though the true count wasn't at +3? Heck yeah!! And when there are more aces available than there should be, then you of course would increase your bet. Granted it might be worth learning a level II count but since I started off with Hi-Lo I found it easier just to stick with this. If necessary, you can use various means to track the aces such as chips but don't make it so obvious.
 
creeping panther said:
For all the effort you may put forth into level 2 or 3 counts I would suggest delving deeply into STing.

Hi-Lo-Lo in DD games, when used for betting and a few deviations in play with the ace side count, gives an excellent combination of HP and Torque to your game with no fatique or added chance of errors.:cool:

CP
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Hmmm. I think I start to understand your HiLoLo system. I believe if you use the ace side count also for playing decisions, it will be even stronger!
 
fwb said:
As someone who logged about 400 hours with Hi Opt II + side-counting aces, I can tell you that the extra mental fatigue/slow down is generally NOT worth it. After switching to Zen, which includes aces and is only tenths of a percent weaker than HO II + sidecount, I can tell you that the advantage of faster play and less mental fatigue made my play much more profitable overall. It was like night and day, and I have never looked back. Everyone's brain is different however, and to someone else (perhaps those whose play equates that fraction of a percent to a significant chunk over an extended period of a time), the extra work might be worth it.

It's really all about finding what strategy makes YOU (not a simulation) the most profit based on YOUR abilities. I have gone through 5 counts since I first sat down at a blackjack table.
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zen is a three level count, right?

what source is good for learning the zen count and all its indices?

also, do zen indices change for one, two, six, and eight decks?
 
creeping panther said:
For all the effort you may put forth into level 2 or 3 counts I would suggest delving deeply into STing.

Hi-Lo-Lo in DD games, when used for betting and a few deviations in play with the ace side count, gives an excellent combination of HP and Torque to your game with no fatique or added chance of errors.:cool:

CP
Click to expand...

thanks - I am trying all these options. It'll be awhile before I decide which I like best. Hopefully it won't take a whole N0. But I'm leveling up.
 
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