6:5 BJ is a Failure
- Thread starter WABJ11
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Craps Master
Well-Known Member
What, in your opinion? We need more than opinion and speculation to pronounce 6/5 a failure IMO. The vast majority of single deck games are 6/5, and it has spread beyond that. It has crept into more and more casinos and spread to more areas with each passing year, yet almost everyone in this thread is prepared to call it a failure? Let's try to be a little objective about this instead of posting baseless claims.
The fact is player odds have steadily declined at blackjack (and nearly every other game) over the decades, and there is no sign of that trend changing. 6/5 is just another milepost.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
I am being objective. I read CBJN every month, and I see far more 6:5 tables being replaced with 3:2 shoes than the other way around. They tried introducing it in AC, a Mecca of bad rules, and it croaked; it is treated as a novelty game and I can rarely find a table. When I tried playing it on the Strip most of the tables were closed, and when I got in a game I don't think I've ever been hawked and backed off so aggressively.
If you are thinking about it in terms of pitch games that you can HC, sure, 6:5 has supplanted a lot of good pitch games but in the overall world of blackjack, no, it is not taking over. It is wearing out its welcome.
Craps Master
Well-Known Member
Show me some data. Number of 6/5 tables, year by tear. Something like that, not you saying you keep up with CBJN.
There's a SD game in an indian casino that offers 1:1. Dealer hits soft 17 as well. There's a lot of weird rules to it though, putting the house edge at .65 according to CBJN. This includes: tied BJ wins, double down any # of cards, surrender any time (including doubling and splitting), suited BJ pays 3:2, and splits allowed after hitting. They also have a promo where 678 and 777 pays 2:1 while suited 678 and suited 777 pays 5:1, (which isn't included to calculate the house edge).
Is this game playable? I avoided it at a heartbeat, but am surprised to see that the house edge is actually less than 1.5%.
Is this game playable? I avoided it at a heartbeat, but am surprised to see that the house edge is actually less than 1.5%.
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Yeah that should have been obvious to me. I couldn't think of a quick way of countering him, so I ended up agreeing with him instead. :laugh: Of course I knew he was wrong all along...
Toxotai Kretikoi
New Member
What??? Walk into any Harrah's properties on the strip and you can hardly find any 3/2 shoes, never mind pitch games. Most tables are jam packed as well.
AussiePlayer
Well-Known Member
I can't see 6:5 failing in Australia, most ploppies just throw the lower denomination chips they get with a blackjack (6:5 or 3:2) away on perfect pairs anyway.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
That's a ridiculous assertion in itself, CEC properties in LV do deal a lot of 6:5 but they deal a lot of everything else too.
But who cares about Harrah's properties on the Strip? The Strip and Las Vegas in general is now a mediocre-to-poor destination for AP. The states of Delaware and Pennsylvania just got 13 new casinos in the past couple of years and not even one table is 6:5. There are only a few tables of it in AC, and the rule is rare in Indian joints. In all the places where gaming is expanding you will not find 6:5. In the places where gaming is dying you find it.
I don't know where you get that it's failed
In Vegas it seems quite the success....the idiots and the people with good eyesight both love it and all those sloppy dealers. It has failed in most of the rest of the country, at least in the non-single deck variety...and even then it's limited to 1 or 2 tables more as a carnival novelty type of thing. I don't think you'll ever see 8 deck 6/5 games anyplace except on the LV Strip.
One note, despite the 6/5 BJ and the recent proliferation of h17 on the strip the hold of blackjack isn't nearly what it was 10 years ago.
BTW, I was in AC recently and the $1 to $10 8 deck games with the ante requirement were all full of idiots gleefully giving their money to the casino.
In Vegas it seems quite the success....the idiots and the people with good eyesight both love it and all those sloppy dealers. It has failed in most of the rest of the country, at least in the non-single deck variety...and even then it's limited to 1 or 2 tables more as a carnival novelty type of thing. I don't think you'll ever see 8 deck 6/5 games anyplace except on the LV Strip.
One note, despite the 6/5 BJ and the recent proliferation of h17 on the strip the hold of blackjack isn't nearly what it was 10 years ago.
BTW, I was in AC recently and the $1 to $10 8 deck games with the ante requirement were all full of idiots gleefully giving their money to the casino.
WABJ11
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a Super Fun 21 variant if all the information you provided is correct.
WABJ11
Well-Known Member
In your opinion what do you attribute the slow death of 6:5 to? Competition from neighboring casinos? Smarter gamblers? I would assume most gamblers could care less about an extra 30 cents. I agree its dying, but what forces have caused this?
Gamblor
Well-Known Member
Certain facts and myths become part of the collective ploppy conventional wisdom, even they think 6 deck is better than 8, hand shuffled is better than ASM, which are better than CSM, BJ is a better game than most others (they actually know other who win fairly consistently at BJ, unlike say Caribbean Stud or Roulette), etc.,
Automatic Monkey
Banned
A collection of reasons, one more important one being it's often the only pitch game a casino has, and it requires extra dealer training.
Another reason is that if the pen is good enough, an advanced counter can hammer the hell out of it with a SCORE higher than anything else in the casino. Surveillance in the big stores that specialize in shoes (i.e., AC) aren't going to be very good at handling it. And if the pen isn't good, all the shuffling is going to hurt the casino's hands per hour more than a shoe with bad pen will.
All tolled, if a casino is going to offer lousy BJ it is much safer and easier for them to just deal a 8D H17 shoe and let the <1% of the patrons who can beat it fight for a seat and swing away, than to worry about dealing and protecting a pitch game that is going to be oddball compared to their other BJ and be exploitable in different ways.
MasterofNone
Well-Known Member
i dont find that to be true. the evil empire puts those games at their doorways where there is the most activity and i see conventioneers and the curious, many who buy in for a hundred at a five dollar table and play till they lose and have a few cocktails. they are there for entertainment and so they can feel the excitement of hitting a few blackjacks and have a few stories to tell when they get back home.
Most Interesting Man
Well-Known Member
What excitement can there be when you hit a blackjack that pays 6:5?
Daggers
Well-Known Member
Imagine some one playing a 6:5 game and just hit a blackjack while only betting $5. Winner: "WHOO!! I just made an extra $1!!" Not exactly inspiring to most ploppies. :laugh:
billionaireben
Member
6:5 isn't so bad
6:5 isn't going away, in south FL there is a very popular $25 min table on one of the casino cruises and in vegas they have plenty of customers (even at high minimums).
Most BJ players suck, at the good games I played and the 6:5 games most players bet big in negative counts and bet small in positive counts. Many don't know the basic rules and turned down my offer to give them a basic strategy card so they wouldnt lose so much.
I prefer single deck to 6 deck, thats a given. If all I can get is double deck, thats okay as long as I get DAS and normal rules (50% Pen is bad, but still playable on a 1-2 player table).
Here are the results from my games on 6:5 tables in vegas:
Tropicana
+15 (DD)
+35 (DD)
MGM
+100 sd
+115 sd
-570 sd
+100 sd
+120 sd
+100 sd
+100 sd
+175 sd
Paris
+35 sd
As you can see, I only had one losing session but it was a big one. The reasons it was such a big loss were that I kept waiting for a big count, and the table was crowded. I learned to never play a 6:5 game if i'm not the only player at the table. If private tables are empty they may let you use them at $25 minimum. I would rather a D10,11 single deck game if thats the minimum. But, the heat is minimal (even if you make wierd plays like doubling soft 20 against a ten predicting the next card is a ten and the dealer has a low hole card like I did which confused the hell out of the dealer.)
To beat 6:5 single deck, I think it should have LS since I got most of my big bets right but a few I would rather surrender. It has to be a heads up game (more rounds, 50% chance of a high card going to you instead of 1 in 3 or 1 in 6, no ploppies screwing up the bust card or taking a card you need. I know they can help you by accident, but the fewer variables the better.) You have to count and vary your bets widely.
Order of value:
1 single deck good rules
2 single deck D 10,11
3 double deck good rules
4 low minimum LS DAS single deck 6:5 with no heat heads up
5 Perfect rules single deck dealt to the last card even money blackjack heads up.
6 six deck shoe good rules 5 deck pen
7 six deck shoe good rules 4.5 deck pen.
I know what I have said will be met with controversy, and many will not agree. If you add really good shuffle tracking or wonging to the 6 deck games then they can be better than usual, but I stopped to look at a game and everyone stared at me like "are you going to play or not" so wonging doesnt work for me.
The benefits of counting to the player that cannot memorize an entire deck and know how to use that info are as follows:
1. know what to bet
2. know if the dealer may bust
3. know the correct play for that count
4. blackjack bonus payout
5. know when to take insurance.
One is decreased the others are either the same or you might even be able to surrender a 16 to a 10 in a positive count.
The benefits of 6:5 are
1 no heat
2 DAS on single deck
3 possible LS
Again, I only played it if single deck games were crowded. I believe 1 player per deck is ideal, in a 6 deck game you want more players so a negative count doesnt last forever.:cool2:
6:5 isn't going away, in south FL there is a very popular $25 min table on one of the casino cruises and in vegas they have plenty of customers (even at high minimums).
Most BJ players suck, at the good games I played and the 6:5 games most players bet big in negative counts and bet small in positive counts. Many don't know the basic rules and turned down my offer to give them a basic strategy card so they wouldnt lose so much.
I prefer single deck to 6 deck, thats a given. If all I can get is double deck, thats okay as long as I get DAS and normal rules (50% Pen is bad, but still playable on a 1-2 player table).
Here are the results from my games on 6:5 tables in vegas:
Tropicana
+15 (DD)
+35 (DD)
MGM
+100 sd
+115 sd
-570 sd
+100 sd
+120 sd
+100 sd
+100 sd
+175 sd
Paris
+35 sd
As you can see, I only had one losing session but it was a big one. The reasons it was such a big loss were that I kept waiting for a big count, and the table was crowded. I learned to never play a 6:5 game if i'm not the only player at the table. If private tables are empty they may let you use them at $25 minimum. I would rather a D10,11 single deck game if thats the minimum. But, the heat is minimal (even if you make wierd plays like doubling soft 20 against a ten predicting the next card is a ten and the dealer has a low hole card like I did which confused the hell out of the dealer.)
To beat 6:5 single deck, I think it should have LS since I got most of my big bets right but a few I would rather surrender. It has to be a heads up game (more rounds, 50% chance of a high card going to you instead of 1 in 3 or 1 in 6, no ploppies screwing up the bust card or taking a card you need. I know they can help you by accident, but the fewer variables the better.) You have to count and vary your bets widely.
Order of value:
1 single deck good rules
2 single deck D 10,11
3 double deck good rules
4 low minimum LS DAS single deck 6:5 with no heat heads up
5 Perfect rules single deck dealt to the last card even money blackjack heads up.
6 six deck shoe good rules 5 deck pen
7 six deck shoe good rules 4.5 deck pen.
I know what I have said will be met with controversy, and many will not agree. If you add really good shuffle tracking or wonging to the 6 deck games then they can be better than usual, but I stopped to look at a game and everyone stared at me like "are you going to play or not" so wonging doesnt work for me.
The benefits of counting to the player that cannot memorize an entire deck and know how to use that info are as follows:
1. know what to bet
2. know if the dealer may bust
3. know the correct play for that count
4. blackjack bonus payout
5. know when to take insurance.
One is decreased the others are either the same or you might even be able to surrender a 16 to a 10 in a positive count.
The benefits of 6:5 are
1 no heat
2 DAS on single deck
3 possible LS
Again, I only played it if single deck games were crowded. I believe 1 player per deck is ideal, in a 6 deck game you want more players so a negative count doesnt last forever.:cool2:
AussiePlayer
Well-Known Member
6:5 IS bad
I would dispute many things you have stated.
This is a tiny sample to be drawing such conclusions from, play $1000 hours of 6:5 and your results won't be so favourable.
Any talk of ploppies taking dealer bust cards/your hit card is pure ploppy logic.
This is completely backwards, IMHO the order should be: 1,3,6,7,2 and never play 4 or 5!
You are obviously inexperienced, take it from somebody who spend 2 years reading posts on this site, before ever posting myself;
I would dispute many things you have stated.
This is a tiny sample to be drawing such conclusions from, play $1000 hours of 6:5 and your results won't be so favourable.
Any talk of ploppies taking dealer bust cards/your hit card is pure ploppy logic.
This is completely backwards, IMHO the order should be: 1,3,6,7,2 and never play 4 or 5!
You are obviously inexperienced, take it from somebody who spend 2 years reading posts on this site, before ever posting myself;
you would do well to read more and type less.