I was wrong about Thunder Valley! Cheating confirmed
- Thread starter JSTAT
- Start date
Isn't now, and never was.
What's the word on the street today?? I have never played at Thunder Valley b/c of this rumor. Are there any regulars or APs there who could update me on this. 75% pen in a DD game offered by an Indian casino seems too good to be true. I'd expect heat to be minimum too..
Thanks!
Thanks!
AR Nick
Active Member
I'm a regular at Thunder Valley. This is all I've noted about the place:
-Decent rules on the double deck, and with 75% - 80% penetration to boot
-Friendly dealers and pit
-Amazing buffet (and low-cost)
-Ultra beefed-up security; no need to cut your games short before the sun sets
-Clean, quiet and peaceful (as far as casinos go, anyway)
I wasn't around when this whole cheating scandal came about, so I can't comment on whether it was true or not. What I can say, however, is that in all the time I have been playing there, I've come across NOTHING that might even possibly suggest cheating.
Thunder Valley, if you're a pitch player, houses the only decent game in this part of Norcal. 'Nuff said.
-Decent rules on the double deck, and with 75% - 80% penetration to boot
-Friendly dealers and pit
-Amazing buffet (and low-cost)
-Ultra beefed-up security; no need to cut your games short before the sun sets
-Clean, quiet and peaceful (as far as casinos go, anyway)
I wasn't around when this whole cheating scandal came about, so I can't comment on whether it was true or not. What I can say, however, is that in all the time I have been playing there, I've come across NOTHING that might even possibly suggest cheating.
Thunder Valley, if you're a pitch player, houses the only decent game in this part of Norcal. 'Nuff said.
LV Bear
Administrator
Game is playable
I agree with WRX. I doubt if there ever was intentional cheating there. I have played there a number of times, winning and losing. I have had a couple of fairly large winning sessions (mid four figures), and never saw anything out of the ordinary there. I fly to Sacramento specifically to play at this place as a prelude to Reno trips. I would not do this if I was the least bit uncomfortable about the integrity of the games.
I agree with WRX. I doubt if there ever was intentional cheating there. I have played there a number of times, winning and losing. I have had a couple of fairly large winning sessions (mid four figures), and never saw anything out of the ordinary there. I fly to Sacramento specifically to play at this place as a prelude to Reno trips. I would not do this if I was the least bit uncomfortable about the integrity of the games.
AR Nick
Active Member
If anyone still has their doubts, I happened to be sitting at a table when they changed the cards. The new decks were fanned out in front of me (and everyone else who happened to be around), and I made a point of making sure they're complete, as did the floorman who delivered them.
Sure, they end up going into the ASMs, and no one sees what goes on in there, but I find it pretty hard to believe that they'd rig their shufflers to replace cards when new decks are added.
I honestly don't believe TV have ever cheated, but even if they were when this thread first got started, they sure as hell aren't doing it anymore. Out of all of the casinos I've ever been in, both as a ploppy and as an AP, TV ranks as one of the best for a multitude of reasons, and even though there's a certain enmity between APs and casino management, I'm not comfortable with seeing TV so harshly slandered for no legitimate reason. If you're not comfortable with the chance that they might be cheating, just don't go. There's no need to keep this rumor going (until I get 86d, at which point I shall viciously spread it until their reputation is destroyed)
Sure, they end up going into the ASMs, and no one sees what goes on in there, but I find it pretty hard to believe that they'd rig their shufflers to replace cards when new decks are added.
I honestly don't believe TV have ever cheated, but even if they were when this thread first got started, they sure as hell aren't doing it anymore. Out of all of the casinos I've ever been in, both as a ploppy and as an AP, TV ranks as one of the best for a multitude of reasons, and even though there's a certain enmity between APs and casino management, I'm not comfortable with seeing TV so harshly slandered for no legitimate reason. If you're not comfortable with the chance that they might be cheating, just don't go. There's no need to keep this rumor going (until I get 86d, at which point I shall viciously spread it until their reputation is destroyed)
Reported my findings to the The California Gambling Control Commission (CGCC) back in 2009,
it looks like nothing has been done to San Manuel Indian Casino since it's still littered with short decks on both high limit room and $25 tables on the main floor. I just can't understand how this scam can go on and on for years without any intervention.
It really shows that The Indian Casinos & the local state are in the same bed.
Lankester
Member
They were not fanning out the new cards when I went in 2009. For Double deck, one person would bring in the new decks unchecked by anyone else, and the dealer would drop them in the ASM without Fanning or washing the cards. Skipping this step let these rumors run, and why not? it is highly suspicious.
I'll give TV another try if they are now fanning the cards, but I'm out of there the second they bring in unchecked decks.
On a side note, as of two months ago Redhawk brings in new decks without fanning the cards. I've seen this twice. But once the dealer just checked the top Ace of spades and bottom Ace to about 10 of hearts he said to make sure the jokers were gone and it was a new deck, and once I saw the dealer fanned them all out.
What is it with these two places? Skipping this step is just bizarre.
I'll give TV another try if they are now fanning the cards, but I'm out of there the second they bring in unchecked decks.
On a side note, as of two months ago Redhawk brings in new decks without fanning the cards. I've seen this twice. But once the dealer just checked the top Ace of spades and bottom Ace to about 10 of hearts he said to make sure the jokers were gone and it was a new deck, and once I saw the dealer fanned them all out.
What is it with these two places? Skipping this step is just bizarre.
AR Nick
Active Member
Strictly for the sake of playing devil's advocate, couldn't it perhaps just be incompetence? I mean, Indian casinos aren't exactly Vegas, and Sacramento isn't famed for its nightlife and gambling. Granted, I've never spotted a stumbling dealer in this area (sadly), but compared to the heat I got in Reno, I've concluded that the eye and floor personnel in Sac are either extremely incompetent or just don't care.
ETA: Of course, the difference in our experiences might be a result of only some tables getting the spoiled decks. This thread has certainly made me very observant when in TV, but I've yet to witness a new deck going straight into the ASM. Not that I'm not keeping an eye out, but I firmly believe that even if cheating was going on in the past, it's not happening now.
Partially related: Didn't TV's management get changed recently?
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Of course nothing was done! Unfortunately, they get bogus reports like this all the time, from crackpot losers.
- BTW; you DO realize that libel laws extend to the internet?
When Thunder Valley first opened, I found that they had a major vulnerability in some of their games. This leak was so strong that I moved to Rocklin, about two miles from the casino, and made TV my "home" casino for about four years; until the hole finally closed.
I kept perfect records of my Thunder Valley action. After more than 3500 hours of play, my results coincide almost EXACTLY with expectation. This translates to more than 100K hands, which statistically puts the chance of having been cheated at much less than 1%.
You guys can believe me, or you can believe the failed card counters who can't accept defeat, and need to blame someone else - EVEN if it means making up lies. :whip:
Why would they insert extra 4's into a 2 deck game of all things. There'd be numerous situations where three cards of the same suit appeared in the same round. Even the dimmest ploppies would catch the cheat.
If they still do this, bring a hidden camera and record for like 10 minutes - it won't be long after 3 4s of the same suit appear.
Removal of a 10 or ace from the deck is plausible because at least then it would take many rounds of keen observation for a person to figure out something is missing (and by then the decks might get changed).
If they still do this, bring a hidden camera and record for like 10 minutes - it won't be long after 3 4s of the same suit appear.
Removal of a 10 or ace from the deck is plausible because at least then it would take many rounds of keen observation for a person to figure out something is missing (and by then the decks might get changed).
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Lankester
Member
Ok. This is absolutely false.
I went there four days after this post (Sat. 8/27). The cards were brought in by a pit guy, he opened them (broke the seal) at the table and removed jokers & poker info cards, fanned through them in his hands with only him checking, and then staked the two decks together for the dealer to do one shuffle and then put straight into the ASM machine. I saw this on Double Deck only.
However i don't don't think they are cheating. But without this simple step done by every other casino on earth, the conspiracy theories will thrive.
On a side note, I can't stand playing at TV. The level of annoying people is exceptionally high, even when compared to the high bar achieved in all native casinos. A rule I never break is that if I can't stand someone at a table, leave immediately. Never try to wait for them to tap out or leave. So with the place packed, there is no table to play at. Going to play solo at the empty high limit table is even worse. The table is right under a speaker where they have music playing so loud with the bass turned up. Not standard casino music played at normal volume, they are blasting club/dance remix songs. It maybe to keep their majority ghetto players happy, but most likely to give a headache to players so they tap out quickly as the place is packed. I could only stand 3 hours of this.
If you got the bankroll for $25 & $100 games and think this is the place, good luck. I'll pass.
AR Nick
Active Member
Reading this is certainly interesting, partly because of the apparent lack of standard protocol at Thunder Valley, and partly because of the revelation that you are a wizard of space and time, informing the fine members of this board about my dishonest recollection of what happened on that fateful day they fanned out and laboriously checked the cards in front of me.
I can't convince you or anyone that they do at least sometimes fan the cards out, nor do I care to do so. The problem I personally have with a lot of the rumors about TV is that they deal in absolutes. Do TV sometimes not fan new cards in front of players? I can believe that based on the posts on this thread, despite not ever bearing witness to that. Do TV never fan new cards out? I cannot believe it for reasons described in my previous post. Does this practice, when it occurs, give rise to suspicions and highlight unprofessionalism on the part of the staff? Yeah, totally. Does this serve as proof they're cheating? Not gonna bet on that.
Any suggestions? Short of driving to Reno every time or simply only playing non-blackjack money games (the latter, a sentiment I'm warming towards), I don't see any better (less worse?) alternative.
ETA: After reading through your post again, I see our opinion on the probability of them cheating is the same. And looking back to the date this thread was bumped, out of all of the posts since then, the opposing opinion hasn't even been aired. Now I just feel silly.
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Lankester
Member
I have no reason Doubt you, I even described 3 different protocols I saw at Readhawk above (8/22/11 post). They may be skipping it when they are packed to save time. Also the damn music, they must turn it up to annoy people into making bad bets and leave.
Maybe the readers of this thread can update with their own experience at thunder valley (double deck):
1) Are the cards fanned on the felt? During packed or slow time?
-I saw on Sat. afternoon, when packed: not fanned, $25 table.
2) Is the music unusually loud with Rap/club/dance type music instead of standard casino music?
-It was unbearable for me, I left with a headache.
AR Nick
Active Member
That's a good idea. It can give us an idea of the how frequently and with what (if any) purpose in mind this is done.
Upon cross-referencing the date of my post with my log, it seems the event I was referring to occurred on Sunday, August 7, between 1230 and 1500 hours. My notes say it was only somewhat crowded, more so than the weekday mornings and afternoons I'm used to, but not as much as the weekend late afternoons and evening. This was at the $25 DD on the main floor, and if memory serves, there was only one or two other players at my table. It didn't really even make much of an impression on me until I read back some of the original posts in this thread.
I can also confirm the loud music, but owing to a combination of growing up in ten-story high tenements with paper thin walls and rarely wearing ear protection while on the range, it doesn't really bother me much.
LV Bear
Administrator
My small contribution to this thread
I have found the Sacramento area so friendly that I now fly from Las Vegas to Sacramento rather than directly to Reno to begin a "Reno trip." I fly home from Reno. I am willing to pay the drop charge on rental cars going one way from Sacramento to Reno if I have to. That's about all I can say. It should be enough to clearly convey my opinion.
I have found the Sacramento area so friendly that I now fly from Las Vegas to Sacramento rather than directly to Reno to begin a "Reno trip." I fly home from Reno. I am willing to pay the drop charge on rental cars going one way from Sacramento to Reno if I have to. That's about all I can say. It should be enough to clearly convey my opinion.