Casino Rama Questions
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halcyon1234
Well-Known Member
How many decks? How much pen? Are they non-CSM?
8d s17 das 75-80%
You will find low limit tables but Casino Rama is infamous for opening a $5/$10 table then jacking up the min bet before the first shoe has even ended. Yes you will get grandfathered, but its still a hastle.
The place is a ploppy zoo, so wonging in can get very difficult.
In there HL room its 6d s17 das $100 min
You will find low limit tables but Casino Rama is infamous for opening a $5/$10 table then jacking up the min bet before the first shoe has even ended. Yes you will get grandfathered, but its still a hastle.
The place is a ploppy zoo, so wonging in can get very difficult.
In there HL room its 6d s17 das $100 min
halcyon1234
Well-Known Member
I just found out I'll be going up there this Friday for my brother's birthday. I'll bring back a report on friday afternoon-evening conditions.
$100 HL. Hrm-- I've never even been near the high limit rooms-- but their $100 min is pretty much my max bet. 6D does sound tasty. How do they treat wongers in there? If I was to do it, I'd have to backcount (talking on the phone to Bill about The Documents, of course), and only jump in at +2. The only problem is-- if I lose that one hand, my max bet SHOULD drop down to $90-- below table max. I think I'd just be better to Wong between 0-1 on the $10 tables and have the ability to scale back my bet a bit.
halcyon1234
Well-Known Member
For the record:
Every shoe I say (didn't see the HL room) was 8D, with 2 decks or less cut off. They use blue decks and yellow cut-cards, so it is actually quite easy to see when The End Is Near. Just about every table is Perfect Pair or Lucky Ladies.
Many of the dealers are slow slow slow, which does make it easier to count.
I don't think I saw a CSM. Some tables use automatic shufflers. A lot of the tables use HAND SHUFFLE-- and a sloppy one at that. I had 3 TC >2 shoes in a row on the same table. If you are any good at shuffle tracking, you'd be in heaven.
They have two rows of BJ. There's about 10 tables clumped together near the slots. Then the next row of table games is all 21 and 3-Card Poker, etc. But if you go another row or two past that, there's another clump of blackjack tables. Those seem to be less populated.
No heat, even when backcounting, wonging, and laying down blacks. A ultra-whimpy "checks play" is called, but the critters neither respond to it, nor do the dealers wait for the critters. The critters barely even check the shuffle.
The dealers are fairly good with their holecards. They use one of those "stick the corner of the hole card underneath a piece of plastic" dealies for blackjacks. The nub is /just/ slightly higher than the table, but the cards are easily slid into place. however, I did see one dealer who bent the cards and lifted them ever so slightly to check. I was back counting and not playing, but I suspect someone might be able to catch a glimpse.
Truthfully, I think they keep all their sloppy dealers in the poker room. They deal so SLOW its painful. AND some of them toss the cards out so high, that I could catch glimpses without even lowering my head. Bad.
Every shoe I say (didn't see the HL room) was 8D, with 2 decks or less cut off. They use blue decks and yellow cut-cards, so it is actually quite easy to see when The End Is Near. Just about every table is Perfect Pair or Lucky Ladies.
Many of the dealers are slow slow slow, which does make it easier to count.
I don't think I saw a CSM. Some tables use automatic shufflers. A lot of the tables use HAND SHUFFLE-- and a sloppy one at that. I had 3 TC >2 shoes in a row on the same table. If you are any good at shuffle tracking, you'd be in heaven.
They have two rows of BJ. There's about 10 tables clumped together near the slots. Then the next row of table games is all 21 and 3-Card Poker, etc. But if you go another row or two past that, there's another clump of blackjack tables. Those seem to be less populated.
No heat, even when backcounting, wonging, and laying down blacks. A ultra-whimpy "checks play" is called, but the critters neither respond to it, nor do the dealers wait for the critters. The critters barely even check the shuffle.
The dealers are fairly good with their holecards. They use one of those "stick the corner of the hole card underneath a piece of plastic" dealies for blackjacks. The nub is /just/ slightly higher than the table, but the cards are easily slid into place. however, I did see one dealer who bent the cards and lifted them ever so slightly to check. I was back counting and not playing, but I suspect someone might be able to catch a glimpse.
Truthfully, I think they keep all their sloppy dealers in the poker room. They deal so SLOW its painful. AND some of them toss the cards out so high, that I could catch glimpses without even lowering my head. Bad.
Brock Windsor
Well-Known Member
Don't allow yourself to be backed off
While it is not infathomable that the Supreme Court could overturn this precedent some day, it is extraordinarily unlikely. Canada (unlike the US) relies heavily on common law and precedents as opposed to civil law. Even if you were representing yourself, just quoting this precedent would likely be enough to win acquital in any provincial court...provided he was indeed counting and NOT cheating. If an Ontario casino threatens to kick you out or shuffle-up on you, get them to put it in writing or refuse to leave until security throws you out (and by throw you out I mean grip your chair until they've caused a few bruises, think of them as 'value' blows). Hopefully there will be witnesses so they can't trump up drunk in public charges, it is best not to drink alcohol in Canadian casinos anyway since they charge you so much. If they insist on kicking you out go to any good gambling lawyer and explain what happened, you will almost certainly make more off the settlement than you would in a year of counting at that bankroll. The OLG is in enough trouble right now from their retailers stealing millions from lotto players that they don't need the bad PR of kicking out honest gamblers. To be fair to Rama, I have never heard of them kicking out Canadian advantage players, some of the floor managers are from Vegas so they are used to intimidating AP's and are good at it...but try not to let them shake you as the law is NOT on their side. That said, if you are a non-Canadian, I wouldn't push your luck too much as you don't want an out of country legal battle, plus they can deport you or paint you as a criminal in the media as happened to Hyland. A couple of US counting teams have been invited to leave Rama and they usually oblige because the games and comps in Canada are bad enough that it is really not worth the hassle. If your friend ever gets backed off in Rama again refuse to leave and ask to speak to the Table Games Manager. (He's an old Brit) I've found he's extremely fair and a 'by the book' kind of guy. Definitely won't kick you out without being able to draft a letter stating exactly why he has made this judgement (i.e. bending cards, using a transmitter/computer, capping bets, etc.)
I know I'm a little over-the-top passionate about this but there is a great system of fairness and justice in Canada for those who are not afraid to use it. You may be trained to think "he's got a name tag and a uniform, I better do what he says" but that doesn't help anybody.
Link for Hyland trial: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/Card_Counting_in_the_Courts.htm
If you are a Canadian citizen you should not allow ANY casino to make you leave a table in Canada, ESPECIALLY IN ONTARIO. In 94 one of Tommy Hylands teams hit Windsor and the big Vegas casinos (Caesars, the Hilton Corporation, and Circus Circus) that had a stake in Windsor put up megabucks through lobbying and legal fees to go to war with him and try to make counting illegal in Ontario. The casinos lost. In the ruling relying heavily on expert testimony from Arnold Snyder the judge stated .." the court has determined that the accused were not cheating contrary to Section 209 of the Criminal Code. They were indeed highly trained professionals using highly developed skills in an extremely risky venture"
While it is not infathomable that the Supreme Court could overturn this precedent some day, it is extraordinarily unlikely. Canada (unlike the US) relies heavily on common law and precedents as opposed to civil law. Even if you were representing yourself, just quoting this precedent would likely be enough to win acquital in any provincial court...provided he was indeed counting and NOT cheating. If an Ontario casino threatens to kick you out or shuffle-up on you, get them to put it in writing or refuse to leave until security throws you out (and by throw you out I mean grip your chair until they've caused a few bruises, think of them as 'value' blows). Hopefully there will be witnesses so they can't trump up drunk in public charges, it is best not to drink alcohol in Canadian casinos anyway since they charge you so much. If they insist on kicking you out go to any good gambling lawyer and explain what happened, you will almost certainly make more off the settlement than you would in a year of counting at that bankroll. The OLG is in enough trouble right now from their retailers stealing millions from lotto players that they don't need the bad PR of kicking out honest gamblers. To be fair to Rama, I have never heard of them kicking out Canadian advantage players, some of the floor managers are from Vegas so they are used to intimidating AP's and are good at it...but try not to let them shake you as the law is NOT on their side. That said, if you are a non-Canadian, I wouldn't push your luck too much as you don't want an out of country legal battle, plus they can deport you or paint you as a criminal in the media as happened to Hyland. A couple of US counting teams have been invited to leave Rama and they usually oblige because the games and comps in Canada are bad enough that it is really not worth the hassle. If your friend ever gets backed off in Rama again refuse to leave and ask to speak to the Table Games Manager. (He's an old Brit) I've found he's extremely fair and a 'by the book' kind of guy. Definitely won't kick you out without being able to draft a letter stating exactly why he has made this judgement (i.e. bending cards, using a transmitter/computer, capping bets, etc.)
I know I'm a little over-the-top passionate about this but there is a great system of fairness and justice in Canada for those who are not afraid to use it. You may be trained to think "he's got a name tag and a uniform, I better do what he says" but that doesn't help anybody.
Link for Hyland trial: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/Card_Counting_in_the_Courts.htm
Brock Windsor
Well-Known Member
Gaming Control Act
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Regs/English/990385_e.htm (Archive copy)
The link is the gaming control act. Essentially it says you may be refused to play if you have been barred someplace where gambling is legal (cheaters), are part of the volountary banning programme (gambling addict), work for the casino, work for a casino supplier, or have proven links to organized crime that would undermine public confidence. Section 35 states all this and section 36 states the written procedure the casino must follow which includes that they must serve verbal notice as to your legal rights and options. None of what you have posted indicates that the casino could ban your friend. I am of the humble opinion that they are ALL feathers and NO chicken...But they'd love to have you believe they can kick out a skilled player. Go back and push back a bit, ask them to put what they say in writing or even print off a copy of the act and bring it with you...
Brock
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Regs/English/990385_e.htm (Archive copy)
The link is the gaming control act. Essentially it says you may be refused to play if you have been barred someplace where gambling is legal (cheaters), are part of the volountary banning programme (gambling addict), work for the casino, work for a casino supplier, or have proven links to organized crime that would undermine public confidence. Section 35 states all this and section 36 states the written procedure the casino must follow which includes that they must serve verbal notice as to your legal rights and options. None of what you have posted indicates that the casino could ban your friend. I am of the humble opinion that they are ALL feathers and NO chicken...But they'd love to have you believe they can kick out a skilled player. Go back and push back a bit, ask them to put what they say in writing or even print off a copy of the act and bring it with you...
Brock
Banned from Fallsview
Hello,
I have just been banned from playing blackjack, I tried clicking on your link, but it's not finding that page.
They would not give me a written notice, and they said they didn't have to, I asked why, and he said he would not tell me and didn't have a reason to.
I have a lot of money, and would love to find a lawyer if what you say is true and put my ammo (money) into owning these ****s. Excuse my language.
Looking forward to a speedy response.
Hello,
I have just been banned from playing blackjack, I tried clicking on your link, but it's not finding that page.
They would not give me a written notice, and they said they didn't have to, I asked why, and he said he would not tell me and didn't have a reason to.
I have a lot of money, and would love to find a lawyer if what you say is true and put my ammo (money) into owning these ****s. Excuse my language.
Looking forward to a speedy response.
No Win
This is a no win situation for you Banned, just learn to let it go.
What do you want? If its money you're after then just find another casino, your action is not welcome at fallsview anymore.
As for legal action, if you sued for wrongful ejection or whatever, you might win the right to play again, but the suit wouldnt be for much money as the damages you incurred were very small.
And if you won the suit, not only would every casino around know your name, but Fallsview would just halfshoe you, as countermeasure are not illegal.
So, you mentioned you wanted to make the casino think twice about acting the same way to someone else, and using the lawsuit for that reason. This is a waste of time and EV, and it sounds like getting back at them for the wrongful treatment of them to you. Is this a good enough reason for your time?
Just let it go, man. And good luck in the future.
This is a no win situation for you Banned, just learn to let it go.
What do you want? If its money you're after then just find another casino, your action is not welcome at fallsview anymore.
As for legal action, if you sued for wrongful ejection or whatever, you might win the right to play again, but the suit wouldnt be for much money as the damages you incurred were very small.
And if you won the suit, not only would every casino around know your name, but Fallsview would just halfshoe you, as countermeasure are not illegal.
So, you mentioned you wanted to make the casino think twice about acting the same way to someone else, and using the lawsuit for that reason. This is a waste of time and EV, and it sounds like getting back at them for the wrongful treatment of them to you. Is this a good enough reason for your time?
Just let it go, man. And good luck in the future.
Southpaw
Well-Known Member
Just my opinion, but I think this post contains a bit too much info, especially since the casino in question has been named. A simple, "I found some interesting things there. PM for details." would have been sufficient.
Spaw
Brock Windsor
Well-Known Member
That post was 4 years old and quite inaccurate with respect to current conditions (many asm's and some csm's). My 4 year old posts in this thread are also complete BS with respect to the realities of theory vs practice and I wish I could delete them. Experience has proved to be the best educator and yields the greatest EV.
You can delete them.
What we found there yesterday was 8 deck ASM cutting 1.5 decks with a cover over the shoe hiding all the undealt cards. The damn hole was packed with Asians and Indians wanting to piggy back our green stacks with their dollar. Interestingly I did see one bold fella double a black stack with ace four against a dealer ten. 
After about an hour and a half of pushing the locals dollar back to them the wife and i were back on the bus and headed back over the border. But all was not lost and we had great couple days in Toronto.
Marlin
After about an hour and a half of pushing the locals dollar back to them the wife and i were back on the bus and headed back over the border. But all was not lost and we had great couple days in Toronto.
Marlin
red_falcon
New Member
What I found interesting was the CSM spanish 21 there. Is that even possible? The only time I saw something like that was in Singapore and Malaysia, but with no Hole card (i.e. Pontoon).