ringlejames
Banned
:grin:
Profit for the year 2011 so far?
- Thread starter ringlejames
- Start date
AussiePlayer
Well-Known Member
I thought you didn't like recording your results in units?
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
I only measure my results in units of how many Ducati Monster S2R's I can buy.
ringlejames
Banned
no, I said I did.
AussiePlayer
Well-Known Member
kewljason
Well-Known Member
Interesting enough, this question comes on the heal of last weeks discussion about the standard definition of a unit. I have always used my minimum bet as my unit, which fits Shadroch's definition of “average bet at neutral counts”.
However Bigplayer calls that the bottom bet and defines a unit as “the amount you bet at each count when you have an advantage”. Richard Munchkin has a similar definition of “amount bet per half percent advantage”, which was seconded by Josh Axelrod. I do find it interesting that these three gentlemen who share this similar definition of unit, which differs from what I have used (my neutral or waiting bet) were all members of teams playing big money. Maybe therein, lies the difference.
I bring this up again, not to be difficult, but because I get very different numbers by the two definitions. If I use my standard of minimum or waiting bet, I get a number that is 6 times larger than if I use the standard of increase per true count (or half percent advantage).
Since some people may be answering using one definition and others answering using the second, it is kind of comparing apples to oranges and the poll loses whatever value it was intended to have.
However Bigplayer calls that the bottom bet and defines a unit as “the amount you bet at each count when you have an advantage”. Richard Munchkin has a similar definition of “amount bet per half percent advantage”, which was seconded by Josh Axelrod. I do find it interesting that these three gentlemen who share this similar definition of unit, which differs from what I have used (my neutral or waiting bet) were all members of teams playing big money. Maybe therein, lies the difference.
I bring this up again, not to be difficult, but because I get very different numbers by the two definitions. If I use my standard of minimum or waiting bet, I get a number that is 6 times larger than if I use the standard of increase per true count (or half percent advantage).
Since some people may be answering using one definition and others answering using the second, it is kind of comparing apples to oranges and the poll loses whatever value it was intended to have.
Midwest Player
Well-Known Member
Up Over 1,000 Units So Far for 2011
However, my unit is quite small so we are not talking about that much money. I have made new all time highs the last two times I played. Some of you guys may have seen my post on BJ21 about close only counts in horseshoes and gernades. Well, I don't have to worry about just being close anymore. I hope my good fortune continues for the rest of the year.
However, my unit is quite small so we are not talking about that much money. I have made new all time highs the last two times I played. Some of you guys may have seen my post on BJ21 about close only counts in horseshoes and gernades. Well, I don't have to worry about just being close anymore. I hope my good fortune continues for the rest of the year.
kewljason
Well-Known Member
Hitting ATH is always good, and milestones are nice as well. It gives one a reassuring feeling and good experience to draw on when things seem to be flowing in the wrong direction. Congrats to you, Midwest.
Richard Munchkin
Well-Known Member
KJ.
I'm curious how you decide how to bet your bankroll. Assume a 20k bank would you walk me through your thought process on how to bet it.
I'm curious how you decide how to bet your bankroll. Assume a 20k bank would you walk me through your thought process on how to bet it.
kewljason
Well-Known Member
Well, actually no, Richard. With a 20K BR, I would not be able to play to the same fraction of kelly and low RoR. The top wagers would be so low, I wouldn't be able to make any money and would be back to a diet of peanut butter sandwiches and mac and cheese, like the first few careers of my career. :laugh:
But for my current BR, I start by calculating the top wager based on the RoR that I am willing to accept and feel comfortable with. I then round off, tinker with and cap that top wager to fit a betting pattern that I determine will be tolerated by each casino. In most cases, this is just below the $XXX threshold, which I have determined is a point that attracts a great deal more heat, but in a few of the larger stores may be just above that threshold. Once I have determined my top wager and just when I want to get it out, I work backwards to my minimum or waiting wager which I bet off the top and at neutral counts, again rounding off and tinkering with the exact amounts to smooth out the ramp and avoid any massive or unnatural jumps.
Because my top priority is longevity rather than extracting as much as quickly as I can, my end betting ramp and spread will not be optimal. Designed more for minimal risk and what I feel is tolerated, in order to preserve longevity.
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aslan
Well-Known Member
Interesting enough, this question comes on the heal of last weeks discussion about the standard definition of a unit. I have always used my minimum bet as my unit, which fits Shadroch's definition of “average bet at neutral counts”.
However Bigplayer calls that the bottom bet and defines a unit as “the amount you bet at each count when you have an advantage”. Richard Munchkin has a similar definition of “amount bet per half percent advantage”, which was seconded by Josh Axelrod. I do find it interesting that these three gentlemen who share this similar definition of unit, which differs from what I have used (my neutral or waiting bet) were all members of teams playing big money. Maybe therein, lies the difference.
I bring this up again, not to be difficult, but because I get very different numbers by the two definitions. If I use my standard of minimum or waiting bet, I get a number that is 6 times larger than if I use the standard of increase per true count (or half percent advantage).
Since some people may be answering using one definition and others answering using the second, it is kind of comparing apples to oranges and the poll loses whatever value it was intended to have.
When you see discussion of betting spreads, you always see it in terms of 1 to 5, 8, 10 or some number, or you see it as a pattern: 0:2:4:8 (zero indicating wonging in). I have always referred to these as "units." I have noticed that Arnold Snyder adopts the same terminology. Even when he describes a "wong in" strategy, such as 0:1:2:4, the 1 unit level may sometimes be at 0.0% and for other strategies, at 0.5%, 1.0%, or 1.5%, etc. I see no useful purpose to calling a unit anything other than one's minimum bet (which is not necessarily the table's minimum bet).
Richard Munchkin
Well-Known Member
Well, actually no, Richard. With a 20K BR, I would not be able to play to the same fraction of kelly and low RoR. The top wagers would be so low, I wouldn't be able to make any money and would be back to a diet of peanut butter sandwiches and mac and cheese, like the first few careers of my career. :laugh:
But for my current BR, I start by calculating the top wager based on the RoR that I am willing to accept and feel comfortable with. I then round off, tinker with and cap that top wager to fit a betting pattern that I determine will be tolerated by each casino. In most cases, this is just below the $XXX threshold, which I have determined is a point that attracts a great deal more heat, but in a few of the larger stores may be just above that threshold. Once I have determined my top wager and just when I want to get it out, I work backwards to my minimum or waiting wager which I bet off the top and at neutral counts, again rounding off and tinkering with the exact amounts to smooth out the ramp and avoid any massive or unnatural jumps.
Because my top priority is longevity rather than extracting as much as quickly as I can, my end betting ramp and spread will not be optimal. Designed more for minimal risk and what I feel is tolerated, in order to preserve longevity.
OK, that all makes sense. But let's say you decide for heat reasons that you are going to have a top bet of 2x400. Now you could bet 2x400 at 1/2% advantage or depending on your ROR you could decide to put that out at 2% advantage. For the sake of argument let's say you decide on the 2% advantage. I would assume then that you would bet 2x200 at 1%, and 2x100 at 1/2% right? In this case you would still call your units $25?
Imagine 2 guys who both play $25 units. One spreads 1-4 and wongs out on any negatives, and the other spreads up to 2x400. For those guys to talk to each other in units they would be speaking different languages.
What this discussion shows is that it is useless to describe thing in terms of units since there is no definition that everyone agrees on.
Friendo
Well-Known Member
The only definitions of "unit" that are widely applicable are subtle enough that not everyone would understand them easily. And even if they were easily understood, there still remains the problem that there is more than one definition.
I think the concept of "unit" should be avoided, except in a casual, conversational usage, where it's understood that two players playing a $25 "unit" can still have widely different ramps and N0, even if they have the same max bet.
jaygruden
Well-Known Member
I think part of this discrepancy, at least, has to do with the time someone has been an AP and consequently the size of his/her BR. When I started my BR was 10K, after 8 months of playing it's right around $23K. While I'm pleased with results from playing part time I have only recently jumped up to $25 tables (and I did so bc the table conditions are better than at the $10 or $15 tables at the stores I play). My BR really requires that my "Unit" is equal to my minimum bet otherwise my ROR becomes too high for comfort. If someone is playing with a $100K BR then they can set their Unit much higher (EI: 2 x $100, etc) while still keeping a very low ROR and set that bottom unit at say a .5% or 1% advantage. If not wonging they can drop to table minimum at say $25 at negative counts to fall below their 1 unit while they wait for the count to climb.
I don't have that luxury normally. But when I do find good conditions at a $15 table I will do the same. Play $15 at neg counts then when the count hits neutral I'll go to my 1 unit size of $25 then work my ramp from there.
Maybe it's just easier talking in terms of money rather than units bc you're right it does become confusing trying to understand what someone is talking about with such varying definitions of a unit.
blackjack avenger
Well-Known Member
why oh why
Why is ROR mentioned
Are we demented
Certainly not for me
ROR is worthless to me.
Why is ROR mentioned
Are we demented
Certainly not for me
ROR is worthless to me.
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
What?
kewljason
Well-Known Member
Yes I have always referred to the $25 neutral wager as my unit. I never even gave a thought as to the definition that you guys have come up with until this thread.
I do see the reasoning behind what you are saying. I had always liked the idea of discussions in units as I figured everyone could relate to it. A 100 unit win is a 100 unit win, whatever your unit is. The discussion in the last week has changed my mind on that.
We could always go back to the old standard of discussion things in terms of money. However, then when someone says, hey I had a big win over 18 grand the other day, the first question asked with be what is your unit or what stakes do you play. :laugh: So it is just a never ending circle. 
Richard Munchkin
Well-Known Member
... when someone says, hey I had a big win over 18 grand the other day, the first question asked with be what is your unit or what stakes do you play. :laugh: So it is just a never ending circle.
Ah - this is the point. See, when someone says I won 18 grand I could not care less about the size of their unit. I have no interest in that at all. I want to know, how did the casino take it? Did you bet table max, or stay under it? At what point did they start to sweat? Did they yank any dealers?
I'm interested in practical considerations that might apply to me, as opposed to idle curiosity about fluctuation.
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
I see so many posts on this site by people who are literally freaking out because they got beat up & lost "beaucoup" units! I say this is RIDICULOUS.
I like to think of my MAXIMUM bet as my "unit", and my "waiting" bets as merely FRACTIONS of a unit. After all, in the final analysis; the max bets are the only ones that REALLY matter anyway (at least to ME).
If I'm spreading $25 to 2 x $500, and I get stuck a thousand bucks; I look at it as though I'm only stuck ONE unit, rather than 40. For one thing, it makes for a much easier pill to swallow, and FRANKLY; it's a more accurate measure of my results ANYWAY.
IMHO; to think of a "unit" in any other way is like comparing apples to oranges.
I like to think of my MAXIMUM bet as my "unit", and my "waiting" bets as merely FRACTIONS of a unit. After all, in the final analysis; the max bets are the only ones that REALLY matter anyway (at least to ME).
If I'm spreading $25 to 2 x $500, and I get stuck a thousand bucks; I look at it as though I'm only stuck ONE unit, rather than 40. For one thing, it makes for a much easier pill to swallow, and FRANKLY; it's a more accurate measure of my results ANYWAY.
IMHO; to think of a "unit" in any other way is like comparing apples to oranges.