Walk-Away Count

[eps6724]

I understand that the 'wong-out' for 6d is determined after the first deck-and-a-half are played out. If the count indicates to continue play, do you just play the rest of the shoe? I haven't seen where anyone talks about any OTHER 'check' spots and the count to stay/leave.

Before I get it-yes, I know-never play at negative counts. So, I question people who start the play and then wong-out. I believe Automatic Monkey plays this way, so perhaps he has an answer???

Thanks!

-EPS

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I understand that the 'wong-out' for 6d is determined after the first deck-and-a-half are played out. If the count indicates to continue play, do you just play the rest of the shoe? I haven't seen where anyone talks about any OTHER 'check' spots and the count to stay/leave.

That sounds like the Front Count. It's based on the True Count Theorem, and the way you do it is if you have a positive advantage after the first 1.5 or 2 decks, you stop counting and sit down and play til the end of the shoe. It will give you some kind of an advantage, but I don't think it's very much of an advantage and if you have the ability to count the front of a shoe, it shouldn't be too big a stretch to continue throughout it and adjust your play and bets accordingly. But it is a nice way to illustrate the things you can derive from the True Count Theorem.

True Wonging requires you to constantly monitor the count and enter the game when it gets good and/or leave when it gets bad.

Before I get it-yes, I know-never play at negative counts. So, I question people who start the play and then wong-out. I believe Automatic Monkey plays this way, so perhaps he has an answer???

Thanks!

-EPS

Sure! Never playing negative counts at all is the strongest method of all. However it can be awkward jumping in and out of shoes. It also makes it difficult to accrue comps, and in my home store comps get me 20-25% of my EV in cash equivalent, and not playing any negative EV hands at all can't make up for that.

So sitting down at the shuffle and leaving when a count gets bad is a decent compromise- you don't sacrifice all that much EV relative to Wong-in/Wong-out, it makes it easier to rate you on a player's card, you don't have to worry about getting elbowed out of your seat before you sit down, and you draw much less suspicion on yourself.

 

[sagefr0g]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eps6724 View Post
I understand that the 'wong-out' for 6d is determined after the first deck-and-a-half are played out. If the count indicates to continue play, do you just play the rest of the shoe? I haven't seen where anyone talks about any OTHER 'check' spots and the count to stay/leave.

That sounds like the Front Count. It's based on the True Count Theorem, and the way you do it is if you have a positive advantage after the first 1.5 or 2 decks, you stop counting and sit down and play til the end of the shoe. It will give you some kind of an advantage, but I don't think it's very much of an advantage and if you have the ability to count the front of a shoe, it shouldn't be too big a stretch to continue throughout it and adjust your play and bets accordingly. But it is a nice way to illustrate the things you can derive from the True Count Theorem.

True Wonging requires you to constantly monitor the count and enter the game when it gets good and/or leave when it gets bad.



Sure! Never playing negative counts at all is the strongest method of all. However it can be awkward jumping in and out of shoes. It also makes it difficult to accrue comps, and in my home store comps get me 20-25% of my EV in cash equivalent, and not playing any negative EV hands at all can't make up for that.

So sitting down at the shuffle and leaving when a count gets bad is a decent compromise- you don't sacrifice all that much EV relative to Wong-in/Wong-out, it makes it easier to rate you on a player's card, you don't have to worry about getting elbowed out of your seat before you sit down, and you draw much less suspicion on yourself.

Schlesinger writes about when to give up on a shoe in Blackjack Attack.
chapter 13 New Answers to Old Quesitons...
it was to me a rather complex analysis. he writes about three different types of players. Mr. Perfect, WiWo and White Rabbit.
Mr. Perfect backcounts and enter game if TC>=+1 walks away if TC<= optimal departure level & bets optimally if TC>= +1 sits out if ODP<TC<+1 & leaves if TC<= ODP
WiWo backcounts and enter game if TC>=+1 walks away if TC<= optimal departure level & bets optimally if TC>= +1 & makes waiting bets if ODP<TC<+1 & leaves if TC<=ODP
White Rabbit enters games at the top of shoe & bets optimally if TC>= +1 & makes waiting bets if ODP<TC<+1 & leaves if TC<=ODP

from what i could understand of this chapter for a six deck shoe one probably is best off abandoning the shoe entirely if the true count isn't at least TC>=+1 by two decks dealt and further in you might even want to abandon the shoe even if the tc=+1 . then again if you are far enough into the shoe and the true count starts tanking you might just stay in if there aren't that many cards left to deal.

 

[Renzey]

Walkaway Count

EPS -- I'm guessing your 1.5 deck walkaway point refers to that given for the KISS Count in a six deck game. It says that with an initial starting count of "9", if the running count is "4" or lower after 1.5 decks are dealt (-1.8 true) -- walking away is recommended.

As for further checkpoints in the shoe, no others are mentioned in the book, and once you're more than halfway thru, there's not enough shoe left to worry about it. But if you want to stay vigilant for walkaway counts within the first three decks, you ought to bail out at "6" (-1.7 true) when you're two decks in; at "8" (-1.7 true) when you're 2.5 decks in and at "9" (-2.0 true) when you're three decks in. Beyond that point, you usually might as well finish the shoe.

 

[eps6724]

EPS -- I'm guessing your 1.5 deck walkaway point refers to that given for the KISS Count in a six deck game. It says that with an initial starting count of "9", if the running count is "4" or lower after 1.5 decks are dealt (-1.8 true) -- walking away is recommended.

As for further checkpoints in the shoe, no others are mentioned in the book, and once you're more than halfway thru, there's not enough shoe left to worry about it. But if you want to stay vigilant for walkaway counts within the first three decks, you ought to bail out at "6" (-1.7 true) when you're two decks in; at "8" (-1.7 true) when you're 2.5 decks in and at "9" (-2.0 true) when you're three decks in. Beyond that point, you usually might as well finish the shoe.

Yes, this is what I was referring too. Thanks to all, now it's back to practicing. Only 4 more months 'till I play 'live' again...
-EPS