Predicting Roulette??
- Thread starter lucfayt13
- Start date
I would like to make it quite clear at this point - after having done a good amount of research and having been in contact with the UK Gambling Commision - that despite what Mark Griffiths states in the afformetioned article, using a concealed computer in the UK can leave you open to prosecution.
I have communicated with Mark Howe - a UK roulette computer seller, the system in question in that particular article who's legitimacy has been called into question on another fairly recent thread - directly in which i was informed very clearly that their "currently are no laws to prohibit the use of such a device" in regards to the use of these devices in the UK. Now as much as the laws regarding such activities are constantly changing, you might think that someone selling such a product would make it their buisness to know how the laws can affect those using their products....
Anyone who would like further information on this topic should feel free to contact me.
RJT.
Brock Windsor
Well-Known Member
Judge Sonny your verdict please..
Can an edge be had at Carribean Stud with knowledge of one additional dealer card, two cards of 5 total? Perhaps I should clarify: ignoring jackpot sidebet, standard U.S. paytable.
Roulette computers legal, can dealers target spin?
Helo
Sonny believes that dealers cannot place where the ball will strike the rotor, he says its impossible, but most people can be taught this trick within a days training. Mark Howe demonstrated this technique to me when i visited him in the UK.
( Supposed roulette experts in this field just assumed it was genuine, no one spotted it, Mike Barnett Of Survtech involved in the Ritz investigation never spotted it, other roulette system developers like forester never spotted it and he was already at loggerheads with this guy? Also the infamous VB expert Laurance Scott when told this was fraudulent. could not see where?)
Mark Howe also was the only one to spot this technique used by a former internet criminal and conman Stefano Hourmouzis. He shows the full footage, and freeze frames the shots to show when Stefano Hourmouzis releases the ball and then makes his predictions, watch the footage, the chances of this been coincidence is billions to one if anyone wants to argue the odds. Full explaination with pictures and explainations of this technique is at computeroulette.com
Then, we have to answer to wether this is unlawful or not, in the UK its not unlawful, there is no LAWs stating this is illegal, if so, please provide some evidence quoting the Law that covers these issues. If it was illegal, the Ritz team would have not been allowed to keep their winnings. The casinos have fought for a LAW to be passed in Parliment, they are not interested, because the know the casinos can call no more bets.
Until recently, a bet was in Honour only, no one had to ever pay you what you had won, nor was you eligible to pay a gambling debt under UK LAW. This has now changed, you can take a casino to court if it refuses to pay out, and they can take you to court if you owe money to them.
The old Law of obtaining a pecunary advantage is only applicable if you have interfered with the game in hand, by taking timings of the ball and rotor and not affecting the game in hand, you are deemed as doing anything wrong.
Casinos have not got together and said if they suspect people using such devices they will simply refuse to pay them their winnings and the punter will have to take them to court. Now why would casinos be stating this all over the interent if there was a LAW to cover them anyway?
People need to do their homework, roulette computers work and make money, the LAW does not protect the casinos in the UK and most of Europe and many of the states in the US.
Computers can make several thousand a night unnoticed, but take some nerve to use.
Taken from an email from Mark Howe on the subject.
Prof R Johansen
roulettecomputerreviews.com
Helo
Sonny believes that dealers cannot place where the ball will strike the rotor, he says its impossible, but most people can be taught this trick within a days training. Mark Howe demonstrated this technique to me when i visited him in the UK.
( Supposed roulette experts in this field just assumed it was genuine, no one spotted it, Mike Barnett Of Survtech involved in the Ritz investigation never spotted it, other roulette system developers like forester never spotted it and he was already at loggerheads with this guy? Also the infamous VB expert Laurance Scott when told this was fraudulent. could not see where?)
Mark Howe also was the only one to spot this technique used by a former internet criminal and conman Stefano Hourmouzis. He shows the full footage, and freeze frames the shots to show when Stefano Hourmouzis releases the ball and then makes his predictions, watch the footage, the chances of this been coincidence is billions to one if anyone wants to argue the odds. Full explaination with pictures and explainations of this technique is at computeroulette.com
Then, we have to answer to wether this is unlawful or not, in the UK its not unlawful, there is no LAWs stating this is illegal, if so, please provide some evidence quoting the Law that covers these issues. If it was illegal, the Ritz team would have not been allowed to keep their winnings. The casinos have fought for a LAW to be passed in Parliment, they are not interested, because the know the casinos can call no more bets.
Until recently, a bet was in Honour only, no one had to ever pay you what you had won, nor was you eligible to pay a gambling debt under UK LAW. This has now changed, you can take a casino to court if it refuses to pay out, and they can take you to court if you owe money to them.
The old Law of obtaining a pecunary advantage is only applicable if you have interfered with the game in hand, by taking timings of the ball and rotor and not affecting the game in hand, you are deemed as doing anything wrong.
Casinos have not got together and said if they suspect people using such devices they will simply refuse to pay them their winnings and the punter will have to take them to court. Now why would casinos be stating this all over the interent if there was a LAW to cover them anyway?
People need to do their homework, roulette computers work and make money, the LAW does not protect the casinos in the UK and most of Europe and many of the states in the US.
Computers can make several thousand a night unnoticed, but take some nerve to use.
Taken from an email from Mark Howe on the subject.
Prof R Johansen
roulettecomputerreviews.com
I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish and quite clearly Mark Howe posting under a different alais.
To quote a email i recieved from the Gambling Commision this morning:-
"I have received a reply from Tom Kavanagh , the Deputy Chief Executive about the Roulette Prediction Computers which is
"Inevitably the position will depend on the facts in any individual case, but the Commission does think, as indicated by Phil Brear in the article over a year ago, that the use of such devices to gain an unfair advantage in a casino is likely to involve the Commission of an offence of cheating and lay the person open to prosecution. We certainly do not agree with Mark Griffiths' unequivocal statement that it is not cheating. Casino operators are well aware of the risks they face from the use of such devices and we and they are agreed it is their responsibility to take preventative measures in the first instance."
Saying "but the Ritz team didn't get charged" is nothing but a poor cover. The Ritz team were caught before the recent change in gambling legislation.
RJT.
Sonny
Well-Known Member
That’s not what I said. I said that I believe it is impossible for a dealer to predict where the ball will land before s/he spins. There are simply too many variables that must be controlled perfectly. The speed of the rotor, the speed of the ball, the drop-off point on the ball track, the position of the ball in relation to the rotor at the time of drop-off, the deflection of the canoes and the bounce through the pockets/frets must all be known and performed perfectly in order to have any chance of predicting the outcome before the spin. To be off by even a miniscule amount will be compounded several times during each rotation of the wheel so a tiny change during the release of the ball will add up to a huge difference by the time the ball leaves the track.
It is a far simpler matter to predict the outcome after the spin has begun since those elements can be calculated. To predict where to ball will land after the spin is obviously possible, but to predict where the ball will land before the spin is impossible. Several casino game protection agents have investigated this concept and have come to similar conclusions.
-Sonny-
Moderators - i actually object to this person posting encouraging people to believe that roulette computers are legal in "most parts of the world". This simply isn't the case as has been shown in courts of law all over the world time and time again. If you can do it mentally - it's legal. If you have to use a computer to obtain the data it's not. Simple as that.
RJT.
RJT.
zengrifter
Banned
I'm not sure that this is resolved. I've seen dealers aim for #s with impressive results. zg
I've yet to see any authority of games protection agree with you on this one. And i would think that they would know as they play on the same side of the table as the people that are claimed to be able to do it.
RJT.
zengrifter
Banned
Proof is very hard to achieve with anything relating to roulette as it requires an individual to create a large number of repetitions in a consistant environment unlike blackjack where you can set a simulator to do the work.
I am saying however that many notable experts have looked into this and have all come to the same conclusion - that it's not feesable. So for all intents and purposes you could pretty much take that to be what i'm suggesting.
RJT.
Sonny
Well-Known Member
It has been proven "so far." :grin: Don't get me wrong, they can aim for the numbers all they want. The chances of them hitting that number are close to nil. Until there is proof that dealer control is possible we cannot reject the null hypothesis. The burden of proof is on the dealers.
-Sonny-
nightspirit
Well-Known Member
Here is a question that came on my mind while reading this thread. Do you think it is possible to spot a biased wheel from your desktop? Some casinos of my country are posting there permanences in the web, update every 15 minutes or so. I also found free available software in the web to check if a wheel is biased or not. No scouting and table observing about some weeks would be necessary. Just a thought...
Sonny
Well-Known Member
It would be possible as long as you can match up the results to the exact wheel. Otherwise you won’t know which one is biased. Also, if the casino posts records of their wheels then they are probably tracking the results as well. Any bias you may find probably won’t last long. I wonder how accurate the results they post are. Is there any reason for them not to “adjust” the numbers they post on the web?
-Sonny-
nightspirit
Well-Known Member
Yes, probably they check it also but then there would be no need to adjust the (Dead link: http://pz.westspiel-casinos.info/hohensyburg/live.php) _numbers_, they would simply change the cylinder or the whole wheel when they found a biased one. They even sell CD's with old permanences. I think it's also hard to check if a wheel was changed or not. The casino's here aren't open 24 hours a day. Anyway, was just a thought, now my dreams of a comfortable ap2.0 are ruined :grin:
Sonny
Well-Known Member
Ah yes, the old "bait and switch" technique. That would be a fantastic promotional idea for them. They could save a fortune by buying a bunch of old beat-up wheels with obvious biases. They could post the results of every biased wheel and wait for people to show up and start playing them the next day. All they have to do is switch the wheels around just before opening the doors. Everyone would be betting on the wrong wheel! Their profits would be huge because everybody would be betting on numbers that would never come up! As long as the wheels pass inspection from whatever government agency they use, everything would be completely legal!
Hmmm, maybe I should get some roulette wheels here at Sonny's Social Club.
-Sonny-
SilentBob420BMFJ
Banned
some dealers target spin whether they know it or not, but by target spin i mean they do the same exact spin everytime, but then you have to take into account wheel speed and where he starts the spin, thus sonny is right, in that its nearly impossible to be like "the dealer started his spin on 10, that means it will land on 6".. but what is possible is when he spins it, you start analyzing the speed and such, and place your bet at the last instant, but you have to be really good, with lots of pracitce, and even then you have no idea if it was luck
SilentBob420BMFJ
Banned
you know what, i noticed that too, he said (or maybe it was somebody else, in a different thread) that "in the uk, using a concealed computer could get you in trouble".. could?? try more like will, especially if they can link it to cheating at a certain game.. of course i have no idea how it is outside the usa, i just know that in the books ive read, it seems unanimous that if you use an electronic device to cheat at a game, you will be prosecuted