What is your Deck Size preference?
- Thread starter Jdesey
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zengrifter
Banned
We're card-counters, so our selection of game 1-8D is a function of GAME CONDITION, notably PENETRATION.
Do you think you know correct basic strategy? zg
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EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
Paying only 6:5 on blackjacks is absolutely crippling. The only way you're going to win at a game like that is if you're seeing hole cards, draw cards, have the entire deck memorized, etc.
Haven't played SD in a while, it's definitely a change of pace from the multiple-deck games.
I also haven't played 6D with consistently awesome penetration, I imagine that would be a roller coaster.
8D is just a war crime.
Haven't played SD in a while, it's definitely a change of pace from the multiple-deck games.
I also haven't played 6D with consistently awesome penetration, I imagine that would be a roller coaster.
8D is just a war crime.
Sonny
Well-Known Member
I used to only play SD and DD games, but now that I started playing for higher stakes I pretty much have to play 6D games. I will sometimes play a SD game, but it is rare.
If you mean the 6:5 BJ games, the effect is that the house edge is increased by about 1.4%. That’s about 7-8 times the usual house edge. It’s ridiculous.
-Sonny-
AnIrishmannot2brite
Well-Known Member
Six deck
6D seems to be the commonest and more likely to sustain 70% penetration or better. The deck doesn't go flat so quickly after a high TC. And my chances of playing two hands in positive applications tends to glean more of the preferable hands under those circumstances.
I have only played double deck once and wasn't very impressed. Penetration only approached 50% at times and usually stayed a little less than that. There were just two players including myself plus the dealer and I kept flatting betting the low min for hours. Never saw a truly high TC even once. Lost about seventy five bucks but quickly recouped it over at the six deck table somewhere else.
Conversely i don't like eight deck shoes. In my neck of the woods they usually have wild cards which skewers the favorable count. Dealer may have a joker under that six up card.
6D seems to be the commonest and more likely to sustain 70% penetration or better. The deck doesn't go flat so quickly after a high TC. And my chances of playing two hands in positive applications tends to glean more of the preferable hands under those circumstances.
I have only played double deck once and wasn't very impressed. Penetration only approached 50% at times and usually stayed a little less than that. There were just two players including myself plus the dealer and I kept flatting betting the low min for hours. Never saw a truly high TC even once. Lost about seventy five bucks but quickly recouped it over at the six deck table somewhere else.
Conversely i don't like eight deck shoes. In my neck of the woods they usually have wild cards which skewers the favorable count. Dealer may have a joker under that six up card.
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AnIrishmannot2brite
Well-Known Member
Can you find eight deck without wild cards?
I don't know how to deal with them. Seem more like a liability or distraction. tried counting them on my feet and kept track of them well but there doesn't seem to be an advantage to keeping track of them.
If the deck is high in jokers they are just as likely to go to the dealer or another player. Besides I'm not betting higher just because there are lots of jokers in the deck.
So I'm more likely to get a joker 21 on a flat bet and the dealer more likely to ruin me with the wild card under her six up card.
I split or double in high TC against 4 5 & 6 and she has that damn wild card under it! Now I'm out big bucks on a dealer's joker and never get the return because most the times the joker arrives I'll be flat betting.
So I'd expect that the EV becomes lower when wild cards are introduced. And I've never seen an eight deck shoe around here without them.
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EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
I've never played a game with jokers, so I haven't had to worry about counting them.
Their effect depends heavily on the crazy rules that the game is using for them. For instance, if a joker counts as an instant-blackjack, then it's a GOOD thing to have them in the game, since you get paid more for blackjacks, and the dealer doesn't. Or it could have some other retarded effect.
Really, you'd probably want to post the details of the joker rules, and maybe one of the math nerds could figure out something.
Their effect depends heavily on the crazy rules that the game is using for them. For instance, if a joker counts as an instant-blackjack, then it's a GOOD thing to have them in the game, since you get paid more for blackjacks, and the dealer doesn't. Or it could have some other retarded effect.
Really, you'd probably want to post the details of the joker rules, and maybe one of the math nerds could figure out something.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
I believe the game with the jokers is Flat Chest (California No-Bust) and not beatable using any familiar counting method.
AnIrishmannot2brite
Well-Known Member
Correct but with the possible exception of lengthy back counting sessions not worth the effort. And even in some of those games the burn cards number six or greater.
EmeraldCityBJ
Well-Known Member
As others have suggested, as APs, it's our job to find the best playing conditions regardless of the number of decks. Single/Double deck games generally have higher win rates because their house edge is lower and the positive counts are more frequent. The advantage of 6D/8D games is you're less likely to catch heat and can usually get away with a bigger bet spread and/or a longer session.
I used to play exclusively double-deck since that was the best game out there, and I managed to avoid too much heat at most places. Now that most of the good 2D games are gone, I mostly play 6D.
Cardcounter
Well-Known Member
Carnivale blackjack
6 to 5 is not blackjack it is carnivale blackjack it does not count the wizard of odds only analysis true blackjack. Some casinos have real single deck where they pay you 3 to 2 on blackjack of course they hit soft 17 but all in all it is a great game if you can double any first two cards. Not being able to double after a split is no big deal and it is not a reason to pick a 6 to 5 payout on blackjack. 2 places in Reno have these rules on single deck! They are boomtown and S! If I was in a place with 6 to 5 blackjack for 1 deck I would look at 2 decks especially on the vegas strip if the two deck game allows double any two, double after a split and full 3 to 2 payout on blackjack that is a very good and beatable game! That 2 deck varity was one of my favorite blackjack games to play and I had 7 winning sessions in a row with those rules! Unfortunally the only casino in my area that had those rules changed them to misserable rules that I refuse to play!
6 to 5 is not blackjack it is carnivale blackjack it does not count the wizard of odds only analysis true blackjack. Some casinos have real single deck where they pay you 3 to 2 on blackjack of course they hit soft 17 but all in all it is a great game if you can double any first two cards. Not being able to double after a split is no big deal and it is not a reason to pick a 6 to 5 payout on blackjack. 2 places in Reno have these rules on single deck! They are boomtown and S! If I was in a place with 6 to 5 blackjack for 1 deck I would look at 2 decks especially on the vegas strip if the two deck game allows double any two, double after a split and full 3 to 2 payout on blackjack that is a very good and beatable game! That 2 deck varity was one of my favorite blackjack games to play and I had 7 winning sessions in a row with those rules! Unfortunally the only casino in my area that had those rules changed them to misserable rules that I refuse to play!
Tarzan
Banned
Odd man out.....
Why do I torture myself and bother to go to Atlantic City on the weekends!? hahaha---Specifically because of the various "ice cube's chance in hell" sort of sweepstakes drawings that go on...that I never win at and have to grind mine out the hard way.
Anyway, I just got back from Trump Marina because of one of these silly ass drawing things (that I am wondering if they make sure some generous slot player wins instead of some clown that has been steadily whacking them at the blackjack table). I hate a crowded, packed in table and that's all that is there is on the weekends ALONG with 8 decks at Trump Marina! (I bounce around all different casinos in AC and Trump Marina is LAST on the list) I followed one table from the start that had only 3 players at it and about 1 1/2 decks in there were 15 extra face cards in the remainder of the shoe so I waltzed in about then. Another guy decided to sit just to my right and was coming in at the same time (so much for the hopes of an uncrowded table, I guess) but what the heck, it's only a $15 min. table. He mentions about seeing all the small cards to me quietly and I am now thinking he must have been right next to me as I was standing back watching the initial play at the table. "Yep, 15 of them more than face cards to be exact", I acknowledge. I bet minimums and see what happens from there as I really just wanted to score a spot at this table that actually showed promise in a sea of garbage. Guy to my right slams 3 blackjacks in 4 hands, numerous natural 20's, etc. I get 12-15 each and every single hand and fail miserably. I played out that shoe and the next one to walk away even. Regardless of any count you can be very unlucky and "Odd man out" with everyone seeming to get good hands except for you--Nature of the beast and this seems to hold particularly true with 8 decks.
8 decks is horrific with what can happen with the cards and I always feel more comfortable with 6 decks instead of 8. (Atlantic City has no double deck games and the single deck is as they talk of on here with 6:5 blackjack, dealer hit soft 17 AND no double down after splits and not even worth playing). Regardless of that I noticed them flocking and packing in the single deck 6:5 blackjack table.
I diddled around and made $200 for the day by the time it was all over but that episode at that particular $15 table really stuck in my mind. I hate 8 decks and avoid playing anything but 6 decks in Atlantic City as a rule. I played the 8 decks today because of the low minimum bet.
My answer to the question? I like double deck but I live in Atlantic City and not Vegas! That being the case 6 decks is as good as you see here but also as the others have mentioned about penetration is important. I hate 8 decks regardless of penetration due to how I have done historically overall against the 8 decks as opposed to 6.
I enjoyed the challenge, I guess? NOT!!!hahahaha...but the interesting thing was to run into someone else that was a counter which is unusual as they are so far and few between. In all my years playing I have only run across one other bonafide counter besides the guy I played alongside this afternoon. Who knows how truly adept he was though and we had practically no conversation once we started playing, so we didn't compare notes or anything.
I hope I didn't ramble on too much on this post...just getting in the door and wired to the gills from all the coffee I drank today! I look forward to going monday when all the crazies vacate and go back to wherever they all came from so I can play some serious blackjack in more favorable conditions but I am still quite thankful there ARE all those crazies from New "Yawk" stoking up the casinos with cash so I can slip in and do my thing without the casinos going out of business! I had a record month in October and it's been a great year for blackjack for me, one of the best... so I won't let a few shoes of tough going and a minimal day financially bother me. Every trip is a learning experience, everything I read on here from other professional players gives me insight (sometimes SCARY insights after reading stuff like the Zengrifter interview! Oh BOY I just want to lay low and be unnoticed). I want to improve my game always if that is possible and reading about playing condiitons and things on here helps maybe. I can flip through 6 decks of cards and tell you specifically what the last batch of 20 cards are but that's not all there is to the game. Number of decks, penetration, etc. At this point I want to learn to "clump track" aces, which seems like a ridiculously and nearly impossible task to learn. This seems like the next logical thing for me to learn to be a better player though.
Why do I torture myself and bother to go to Atlantic City on the weekends!? hahaha---Specifically because of the various "ice cube's chance in hell" sort of sweepstakes drawings that go on...that I never win at and have to grind mine out the hard way.
Anyway, I just got back from Trump Marina because of one of these silly ass drawing things (that I am wondering if they make sure some generous slot player wins instead of some clown that has been steadily whacking them at the blackjack table). I hate a crowded, packed in table and that's all that is there is on the weekends ALONG with 8 decks at Trump Marina! (I bounce around all different casinos in AC and Trump Marina is LAST on the list) I followed one table from the start that had only 3 players at it and about 1 1/2 decks in there were 15 extra face cards in the remainder of the shoe so I waltzed in about then. Another guy decided to sit just to my right and was coming in at the same time (so much for the hopes of an uncrowded table, I guess) but what the heck, it's only a $15 min. table. He mentions about seeing all the small cards to me quietly and I am now thinking he must have been right next to me as I was standing back watching the initial play at the table. "Yep, 15 of them more than face cards to be exact", I acknowledge. I bet minimums and see what happens from there as I really just wanted to score a spot at this table that actually showed promise in a sea of garbage. Guy to my right slams 3 blackjacks in 4 hands, numerous natural 20's, etc. I get 12-15 each and every single hand and fail miserably. I played out that shoe and the next one to walk away even. Regardless of any count you can be very unlucky and "Odd man out" with everyone seeming to get good hands except for you--Nature of the beast and this seems to hold particularly true with 8 decks.
8 decks is horrific with what can happen with the cards and I always feel more comfortable with 6 decks instead of 8. (Atlantic City has no double deck games and the single deck is as they talk of on here with 6:5 blackjack, dealer hit soft 17 AND no double down after splits and not even worth playing). Regardless of that I noticed them flocking and packing in the single deck 6:5 blackjack table.
I diddled around and made $200 for the day by the time it was all over but that episode at that particular $15 table really stuck in my mind. I hate 8 decks and avoid playing anything but 6 decks in Atlantic City as a rule. I played the 8 decks today because of the low minimum bet.
My answer to the question? I like double deck but I live in Atlantic City and not Vegas! That being the case 6 decks is as good as you see here but also as the others have mentioned about penetration is important. I hate 8 decks regardless of penetration due to how I have done historically overall against the 8 decks as opposed to 6.
I enjoyed the challenge, I guess? NOT!!!hahahaha...but the interesting thing was to run into someone else that was a counter which is unusual as they are so far and few between. In all my years playing I have only run across one other bonafide counter besides the guy I played alongside this afternoon. Who knows how truly adept he was though and we had practically no conversation once we started playing, so we didn't compare notes or anything.
I hope I didn't ramble on too much on this post...just getting in the door and wired to the gills from all the coffee I drank today! I look forward to going monday when all the crazies vacate and go back to wherever they all came from so I can play some serious blackjack in more favorable conditions but I am still quite thankful there ARE all those crazies from New "Yawk" stoking up the casinos with cash so I can slip in and do my thing without the casinos going out of business! I had a record month in October and it's been a great year for blackjack for me, one of the best... so I won't let a few shoes of tough going and a minimal day financially bother me. Every trip is a learning experience, everything I read on here from other professional players gives me insight (sometimes SCARY insights after reading stuff like the Zengrifter interview! Oh BOY I just want to lay low and be unnoticed). I want to improve my game always if that is possible and reading about playing condiitons and things on here helps maybe. I can flip through 6 decks of cards and tell you specifically what the last batch of 20 cards are but that's not all there is to the game. Number of decks, penetration, etc. At this point I want to learn to "clump track" aces, which seems like a ridiculously and nearly impossible task to learn. This seems like the next logical thing for me to learn to be a better player though.
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I'm from Pittsburgh and have played 2 night junket's at Trump Plaza for three years and have never played a hand in the place. $125.00 for flight, two nights and transporation to casino from AC airpport. I walked around a few times but have never seen a game close to the Borgata rules, expecially min 6 deck.
Tarzan
Banned
Trump Marina Blues
It is small so it's hard to get "lost in the shuffle" and oh yes, let's not forget those 8 decks! They do have 6 decks in the pit though, making this your best option in the place but overall there's just a very limited number of tables and Trump Marina is sort of isolated from the rest of the casinos and not very convenient to go to anyway if you do what I do and go "casino hopping" out of one and into the next one the way you can do on the boardwalk.
Borgata has that same isolation factor but at least ALL the tables have 6 decks. Many on here find Borgata the best (and I agree with them) even with the isolation and having to make a special trip to there because of the 6 decks at all the tables and not just the tables in the pit, the sheer number of tables available and a few other factors. My mistake is often getting to the Borgata too late in the afternoon after making my rounds at the other places and finding that even during the week it gets too crowded for my tastes by late afternoon is all.
What is the general thought on this? Would many of you agree that given the same degree of penetration that you would prefer to go up against 6 decks rather than 8 and historically what are you recollections or comparisons of this? I mean, does anyone on here find that they seem to do better with 8 decks due to the "voodoo factor" or the "stupid lucky 8 decks factor"? Atlantic City has no double deck but I am in Vegas in March and will likely stick exclusively to the double deck games, which I did on my last trip there and faired quite well. I hope Vegas hasn't changed since the last time I was there year before last!
21forme...it's not like you're missing much! Trump Marina is nothing special.
It is small so it's hard to get "lost in the shuffle" and oh yes, let's not forget those 8 decks! They do have 6 decks in the pit though, making this your best option in the place but overall there's just a very limited number of tables and Trump Marina is sort of isolated from the rest of the casinos and not very convenient to go to anyway if you do what I do and go "casino hopping" out of one and into the next one the way you can do on the boardwalk.
Borgata has that same isolation factor but at least ALL the tables have 6 decks. Many on here find Borgata the best (and I agree with them) even with the isolation and having to make a special trip to there because of the 6 decks at all the tables and not just the tables in the pit, the sheer number of tables available and a few other factors. My mistake is often getting to the Borgata too late in the afternoon after making my rounds at the other places and finding that even during the week it gets too crowded for my tastes by late afternoon is all.
What is the general thought on this? Would many of you agree that given the same degree of penetration that you would prefer to go up against 6 decks rather than 8 and historically what are you recollections or comparisons of this? I mean, does anyone on here find that they seem to do better with 8 decks due to the "voodoo factor" or the "stupid lucky 8 decks factor"? Atlantic City has no double deck but I am in Vegas in March and will likely stick exclusively to the double deck games, which I did on my last trip there and faired quite well. I hope Vegas hasn't changed since the last time I was there year before last!
21forme...it's not like you're missing much! Trump Marina is nothing special.
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Automatic Monkey
Banned
It depends. LS is available at Trump Marina and if you can both get it and find pen under 2 decks, it is the best game in town. No comparison between a LS game and one without. Other than that the best game is the game with the best pen, and you can find that anywhere. Borgata is OK but they tend to be crowded and with high table mins.
DD is nice but you need pen better than 60% to make it worthwhile. You may be very disappointed if you haven't been to LV in two years. Not much worthwhile Downtown anymore.