First base or third base?

[Ferretnparrot]

Ok to my knowledge third base is the better one because playing decisions are more accurate. But to what increased degree i am unsure

In some casinos i goto, i notice that while sitting in 1st base, if you leannnn back and stretch your arms, the last card of the shoe might eaccidently expose itself , sometimes two cards depending on how they "lean" so thats a bonus

which give you a bigger advantage? the third base play accuracy, or seeing the last card of a shoe and adding it to your count?and what is the answer to the delema of choosing between the two seats, surely the number of players at the table and number of decks has an effect too.

Is it possible that third base is not always the seat of choice?

Outside the box again,

Ferret

 

[sagefr0g]

supposedly there is some slight advantage to 1st base according to a study i once read. a valid study or not i don't know and under what conditions i've forgotten. but it was an academic study as i recall. if i remmember correctly it had nothing to do with card counting but was to do with basic strategy play only. you could probably find the paper by googeling. it was in pdf format.

 

[zengrifter]

I used to prefer 3rd untill I started tracking Aces (1-2D) and now I go for 1st. xg

 

[p8ntballsk8r]

what card are you talking about? is it a pitch or shoe game?

if it's a shoe game and you can see the dealer's bottom card (holecarding)

this would be a huge advantage and definately worth playing.

I like 3rd base or between 2nd and third so I have plenty of time to see everyone else's cards to influnse my indices and also so I have plenty of time to keep the count if the dealer is lightning fast.

 

[moo321]

I like the spot just before 3rd. Twice as likely to have 2 spots available, and you're somewhat less likely to get tagged as a counter.

 

[Mimosine]

i'll sit anywhere. i typically try to sit next to 1st or 3rd so that i can "hold" two spots for myself. i push chairs out of the way, or push them closer together, fold my hands behind my head etc. this is far more important than any *theoretical* edge you might get out of 1st vs. 3rd. as far as 'getting more information' at 3rd, i don't really think there is much weight to that. if you're at 1st base, the count is what it is. if you're at third it will change a little bit before it gets to you but you'll still have enough time to figure out what to do.

if you're playing SD or DD it is pretty much the same scenario too, unless you're playing with 5 other people, which you shouldn't be. also the biggest advantage to counting is raising bets. this is done BEFORE you're even dealt your cards, so does it really matter what seat you sit in?

 

[shadroch]

In a pitch game,I always try to sit at first base. With a sloppy dealer,its like stealing candy from a baby.

 

[rollem411]

I'm pretty sure third base has a slight edge over any other seat. Sonny posted a link, but I forget the site that has a number of charts with answers to questions like these.

I like the spot just before 3rd. Twice as likely to have 2 spots available, and you're somewhat less likely to get tagged as a counter.

I try to sit at the third base seat and play the spot next to it. You can spread your hands to the left and no one can sit there.

 

[sagefr0g]

here is something for counters playing face down single deck games.....

http://www.qfit.com/cvcharts.htm#fbp

 

[zengrifter]

I'm pretty sure third base has a slight edge over any other seat.

Not enough to be concerned about. zg

 

[Sonny]

It really isn’t much advantage at all to see the bottom card after it has been loaded into the shoe. The advantage of sitting at third base (assuming you know a few index plays) will be greater than knowing the value of one extra card. It is very rare to be able to see the last card in the shoe so you are better off sticking with the third base advantage which will always be there.

Now if you can see some of the cards before the cut then you can get a very big advantage.

-Sonny-

 

[Mimosine]

The advantage of sitting at third base (assuming you know a few index plays) will be greater than knowing the value of one extra card.
-Sonny-

i'm not sure i believe this. i think in a 6D game the information sitting at third would be less than marginal. even though we have a count in mind, it really doesn't help us at all to know which card is the next out of the shoe....

to play the zengrifter's advocate, doesn't sitting at first have the advantage of knowing when the shoe will be over (since you can peek in the shoe), and whether you should play one vs. two or even three hands to eek out an extra possible round? wouldn't that be higher EV in a plus count?

 

[Ferretnparrot]

to play the zengrifter's advocate, doesn't sitting at first have the advantage of knowing when the shoe will be over (since you can peek in the shoe), and whether you should play one vs. two or even three hands to eek out an extra possible round? wouldn't that be higher EV in a plus count?

This is a good idea, i think this outweights both of the advantages

 

[Sonny]

i think in a 6D game the information sitting at third would be less than marginal.

It depends on how many other players there are at the table. If you’re playing heads-up at third base then you won’t get any of the playing advantage. If the table is full then you will see several extra cards before making your playing decisions so that will be to your benefit. You are right that the extra advantage can be marginal, but it is still better than knowing one extra card (like seeing the burn card and adding it to your count).

-Sonny-

 

[sagefr0g]

It depends on how many other players there are at the table. If you’re playing heads-up at third base then you won’t get any of the playing advantage. If the table is full then you will see several extra cards before making your playing decisions so that will be to your benefit. You are right that the extra advantage can be marginal, but it is still better than knowing one extra card (like seeing the burn card and adding it to your count).

-Sonny-

probably wouldn't be much considering the true count theorem if i'm understanding the gist of that

 

[Mimosine]

probably wouldn't be much considering the true count theorem if i'm understanding the gist of that

i don't think the people who wrote the true count theorem understand it....

 

[zengrifter]

i don't think the people who wrote the true count theorem understand it....

So will you please explain it to us? zg

 

[Mimosine]

So will you please explain it to us? zg

i made no claim that i understood it either! but when i did read about it, the authors put in print that that they were a little shakey on it, if i recall..... where did i read that.....hmm.

 

[sagefr0g]

i made no claim that i understood it either! but when i did read about it, the authors put in print that that they were a little shakey on it, if i recall..... where did i read that.....hmm.

might have read it here:
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/counting/tcproof.htm (Archive copy)
he states in the subject line "proof that everyone has the same shot at getting tens" that's why i thought it might be relevant. but i would imagine the third base advantage might have to do with a better gauge on basic strategy index deviations.

 

[zengrifter]

i made no claim that i understood it either! but when i did read about it, the authors put in print that that they were a little shakey on it, if i recall..... where did i read that.....hmm.

Simplified, it means that the TC has no tendency towards zero (except
right at the end of shoe), unlike the RC which always tends towards zero. zg