6:5 Blackjack is awesome!!

[Jack_Black]

It seems to me that 6:5 is not all as bad as APs make them out to be. Yes, I understand why not being able to hit split aces is disadvantageous for the player. It should be obvious really. Most rules and variations make sense as to why they can help or hurt you. But 6:5? You are still getting paid, plus 20% more. Unlike a rule such as "dealer wins all pushes." Or even a typical rule, like the "No hitting split aces" How and who came up with the calculation that 6:5 blackjack gives the house a 1%+ edge? It's not taking away money, or allowing you not to win. Granted you win a lessor amount, but it is not a loss, nor keeping you from making a win. Someone please explain this to me. I am a noob, I don't have deep understandings behind esoteric mathematical branches or theories.

 

[Thunder]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Why would you play 6:5 BJ vs 3:2 BJ???? Answer that first...

 

[zengrifter]

You sound like the REAL Jack Black. zg

 

[KenSmith]

Awesome? If you're a casino, yeah. :laugh:

How does the math work?
Simple and quick estimate...
You get a blackjack about once every 21 hands.
When you do, they short your payout by 0.3 of a bet.
0.3 / 21 = 0.0142 or about 1.4%

Compare that to your comment about being unable to hit split aces (which is the normal rule at almost all casinos.) If the player were allowed to hit split aces, it would add only 0.19% to the game. So, the 6:5 rule matters about seven times more.

 

[iCountNTrack]

It seems to me that 6:5 is not all as bad as APs make them out to be. Yes, I understand why not being able to hit split aces is disadvantageous for the player. It should be obvious really. Most rules and variations make sense as to why they can help or hurt you. But 6:5? You are still getting paid, plus 20% more. Unlike a rule such as "dealer wins all pushes." Or even a typical rule, like the "No hitting split aces" How and who came up with the calculation that 6:5 blackjack gives the house a 1%+ edge? It's not taking away money, or allowing you not to win. Granted you win a lessor amount, but it is not a loss, nor keeping you from making a win. Some please explain this to me. I am a noob, I don't have deep understandings behind esoteric mathematical branches or theories.

Very simple math, if you were getting paid 3:2, your ev is a little less than 150% (in case dealer has a BJ also), but for simplicity lets assume, it is 150% (it will cancel anyway), but you actual gain also depends on the frequency of getting a natural about 4.79%, so your actual gain=150%*4.79%=7.18%

For the 6:5 your ev for a hand is 120%, so your actual gain= 5.75%

7.18%-5.75%= 1.43% so you are giving up 1.4% of your ev

Avoid it like a plague

Edit: Ken you beat me

 

[Jack_Black]

I want to play 6:5 because that is THE STANDARD single deck game. I hate shoes, and 2 deck is good, but it still isn't single deck. I have to go to vegas quite a bit, day job reasons, and I really don't have plans to go to reno, laughlin, or any other place that would have 3:2 single deck. I played 6:5 single deck on Casino verite, for a few hours and did well. Have yet to run it through cvcx though.

 

[Thunder]

Well if you go to Vegas a lot, there's no reason why you can't go to Fremont St. where 3:2 is THE STANDARD single deck game.

 

[Jack_Black]

Very simple math, if you were getting paid 3:2, your ev is a little less than 150% (in case dealer has a BJ also), but for simplicity lets assume, it is 150% (it will cancel anyway), but you actual gain also depends on the frequency of getting a natural about 4.79%, so your actual gain=150%*4.79%=7.18%

For the 6:5 your ev for a hand is 120%, so your actual gain= 5.75%

7.18%-5.75%= 1.43% so you are giving up 1.4% of your ev

Thanks for everyone's help. So here, you're saying that the EV is still positive for the player, but does take out a huge chunk of change that one could be making. BUT it is not a huge enough negative EV that would remove all advantage the player has when he/she counts the cards?

 

[Thunder]

Put it this way. You would have to use a huge spread to overcome the disadvantage of BJ only paying 6:5. You're far far better off playing a shoe game and counting that when they pay you 3:2.

 

[Jack_Black]

Well if you go to Vegas a lot, there's no reason why you can't go to Fremont St. where 3:2 is THE STANDARD single deck game.

I went to Binions, they kicked me out so fast, like they're all trained to seek counters and give em the boot at the first sign. I tripled my bet at a 2 deck with 2 different dealers. One guy lied to me and told me there was a table there with better rules that I should be playing on. I walked to the area where he said it would be and there was nothing there. The other lady told me it was a house rule that there is no bet tripling. She even asked the pit boss to prove it to me, and instead of answering the question, he just told her to shuffle the deck. Pissed off everyone at the table, and make me look like a jerk. Had some manager type watching me play from behind for awhile, then I started losing bad, so he walked away. This of course, was one of my first card counting experiences. I'm much better now, didn't know anything about how to behave, how to treat casino crew, cover plays, yada yada. So it seems like you gotta be very pro to be able to play downtown without being detected.

 

[Jack_Black]

Put it this way. You would have to use a huge spread to overcome the disadvantage of BJ only paying 6:5. You're far far better off playing a shoe game and counting that when they pay you 3:2.

Is 1-8 enough?

 

[Thunder]

Put it this way. You would need a +4 TC before you even had the advantage.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Thanks for everyone's help. So here, you're saying that the EV is still positive for the player, but does take out a huge chunk of change that one could be making. BUT it is not a huge enough negative EV that would remove all advantage the player has when he/she counts the cards?

With very specialized systems and ideal conditions 6:5 can be beaten. You cannot use the same counting methods that you would use on a real blackjack game. There is no reason to attempt to play 6:5 blackjack in Nevada.

Who told you 6:5 was the standard game? If you are in Las Vegas you are better off Wonging out of the shoe games in the big Strip properties than just about anything else in the city. Downtown doesn't have much going for it.

 

[UK-21]

I'm based in the UK, and posed similar questions about the 6:5 SD game a while back. The subject tends to get people's temples throbbing.

Myself and Mrs N are saving our pennies to visit LV at some stage, and she has said she'd prefer to stay on the Strip and not go downtown - she's been many times before. As I'm a low stakes player, the dilemma for me is to play 6 decks with poor rulesets and higher mins or SD 6:5 with better rules but much worse payouts. I did some sums using a spreadsheet, and I reckon the EV for the game is just slightly worse than an 8 deck shoe game with crappy rules. So there you have it - it's a toss up between playing 6:5 on the Strip if I want to play SD, or have the expense and hassle of travelling downtown to one of the places there for the better payout. At $5 mins, the loss in payout is about $7.50 an hour, based on pulling 5 snappers an hour. I'm told that to take a cab downtown and back will relieve me of around $40 - you do the sums! Mrs N has said there's no way she's travelling in crowded, sweaty buses on our once in a lifetime hol together to LV. I'll probably stick with the six deckers.

The subject is an emotive one amongst the APs on the Forum, and suggesting that there might be some positive aspects to the game usually means you cop a burst fired from the hip. But they are right - if you're playing to make money, for whatever reason, you should find something better.

 

[Tarzan]

Awesome... really awesome

I don't know what to say! You think this 6:5 game is so fantastic and awesome and all--- You just keep playing it. Who am I to question what is providing someone fulfillment and happiness in their life!

Although I will not play it, I still enjoy watching it. A post I made sometime way back referencing "lambs to the slaughter" I got told by someone... Shad or someone 'er other that I give due regard to what they say along the lines of "If this is what is blissful for them, to play a game that is hedged that much farther to a player's disadvantage, perhaps it is a blissful slaughter!" I never thought about it like that (primarily because I myself don't think like that) but it's true! Maybe with some people the enjoyment of gambling comes first over any additional house edge and the more people that think like this ALSO provide some happiness and fulfillment... for the casino!

 

[SystemsTrader]

I want to play 6:5 because that is THE STANDARD single deck game. I hate shoes, and 2 deck is good, but it still isn't single deck.

This is why 6:5 will never die. Many of the uninformed masses think this way.

 

[johndoe]

I think this thread has caused ExhibitCAA to lose another keyboard.

 

[Jack_Black]

I don't know what to say! You think this 6:5 game is so fantastic and awesome and all--- You just keep playing it. Who am I to question what is providing someone fulfillment and happiness in their life!

This is why 6:5 will never die. Many of the uninformed masses think this way.

I think this thread has caused ExhibitCAA to lose another keyboard.

I would appreciate it if I could hear more constructive criticisms and responses that showed logical reasoning instead of huffy, crossed arms, nose up opinions on this matter. Responses showing equations as to why 6:5 is no good or that it can be beaten with modification are desired here. Thank you.

 

[Jack_Black]

With very specialized systems and ideal conditions 6:5 can be beaten. You cannot use the same counting methods that you would use on a real blackjack game. There is no reason to attempt to play 6:5 blackjack in Nevada.

Any systems or ideal conditions that you could share? Or at least point me in the right direction?

 

[johndoe]

I would appreciate it if I could hear more constructive criticisms and responses that showed logical reasoning instead of huffy, crossed arms, nose up opinions on this matter. Responses showing equations as to why 6:5 is no good or that it can be beaten with modification are desired here. Thank you.

Welcome to the internet! You really need to grow some thicker skin.

If you had done even a tiny amount of research you would have easily found out why 6:5 blackjack is a horrible deal, and why it hurts both ignorant casual players as well as AP's.

As for taking on a winning 6:5 strategy yourself, you are nowhere near qualified (few are), and frankly I don't see why you'd want to bother.