Ace count in 6 deck

[Morphy]

I know that for most it's not worth it, but if you were able to keep track of aces how do you best utilize that info when playing?

 

[21forme]

You're right. It's not worth it. But if I did do it, I'd use it for INS. Every "extra" ace remaining in the deck should be adjusted by adding -2 to the RC, since for INS purposes, it's a small card; and vice versa.

 

[Fenix]

How the ace side count is used depends on the main count you're using. Hi-lo counts the 10's as a -1, so the surplus/deficit aces will have the same value of 1. Since the ace is already reckoned in the main count, the aces are compared for playing decisions like insurance. If the running count is +6 and you're 4 decks into the 6d shoe, you should expect to have seen 16 aces, four for each deck. If instead you've only seen 14, that's two surplus aces that have yet to be played. I believe you subtract these surplus aces from your running count, so +6-1-1, to get a RC of +4, so a TC of +2 for this playing decision. Had you not had the side count, your TC for the decision would be +3 because you wouldn't have known to adjust it. Similarly, if you've seen more aces than normal, like 18 instead of 16, you'd add those extra aces to your count for insurance decision purposes.

In ace neutral counts the aces work differently. They're used to get a betting count. The main count is used for insurance and playing decisions. In HiOpt2, the 10's have a -2 tag, so the surplus/deficit aces also have an adjustment of 2. If my RC is +6 and I've only seen 14 aces instead of the 16 like I should have at 4 decks in, I adjust my RC by +2 for each surplus ace to be played +6+2+2 = +10 RC for a TC of +5, so I bet as if the TC is +5. After I get my cards, I play them as if it is +3 TC provided the count hasn't changed because playing decisions are based off of the main count.

Is it worth it? That's up to you. I side count the aces in shoe games. I play both pitch and shoe games. I personally feel I'd make a lot of mistakes if I used different counts for different games so I keep it simple and just use HiOpt2 for everything.

 

[Taff]

Fenix...I've been following the 'discussion' between Moses and T3 elsewhere. As you use HIO2 with ace side count in shoe games can I ask you if you're using full indices and does this enable you to go with a lower spread in, say 6 deck games due to higher P.E.??

 

[Fenix]

I've loosely been following their discussions too. HO2 requires less spread than hi-lo to get the same EV. The more decks there are the less PE matters. Don is correct that I18 captures most of the EV for playing deviations, including HO2. I think HO2 mostly does better in shoes because the tags are closer to correct EOR than hi-lo. Obviously it has better PE too, but that's not as important in shoes. I use about 20 indices and I usually spread 1:8 or 1:10 in shoe games. I plan to learn more indices, but I don't expect to notice much of a difference from them.

I don't have my computer in front of me to fiddle around with CVCX. I did do some comparisons the other day just for fun. I remember the EV was about the same for HO2 sweet 16 compared to hi-lo full indices, same spread. I believe HO2 S16 was still marginally in the lead.

Edit: just remembered the online CVCX. Here's some numbers:

Same spread (1:10) and stuffs.
Hi-Lo Full indices: EV/100: $23.12 N0:43379 SCORE: 23.04
HO2 I18: EV/100:$23.48 N0: 42857 SCORE: 23.33
HO2 Full indices: EV/100: $30.21 N0: 34257 SCORE: 29.19

Edit edit:
In regards to spread, to get an EV of about $23, I changed the spread from 1:10 to 1:8 for an EV of $23.53 with HO2 full indices.

 

[21forme]

I've been following the 'discussion' between Moses and T3 elsewhere.

And your head hasn't exploded yet?

 

[Taff]

And your head hasn't exploded yet?

It's like driving past a car crash. You wanna look away but you just cant.!!