Advice please - is counting worth it?

[WannabeCounter]

I got reeled in by this advantage play concept by the film - 21. Obviously, I wasn't as stupid as to think that it really happens like that in real life, but I was extremely interested all the same.
I read "Play Blackjack Like the Pros" by Kevin Blackwood (enjoyable read) and I also read "KO Blackjack" by V+C. This is besides joining these forums and reading posts by all of you.

First off. I'm an A Level student. The only way for me to have a bankroll would be to get a loan. Let's say, for instance; that I could get one. Is counting even worth it? Would I be making enough money to justify the time and effort? Is this something best left for when I'm more well-off?

I had a conversation over a year ago with UK-21 about this. I am also based in the UK and apparently the best game (that everyone knows about) is a 4 deck S17 DAS DA2 Insure on Dealer Ace. In Europe there is no holecard, so obviously, no peek.
Based on that, you know what kind of outcome I would be able to achieve.

I've spent time dealing cards to myself, learning BS, practicing counting and index plays. But....perhaps I shouldn't?

People on here have played at the tables so I could really use your advice on this.

 

[paddywhack]

Depends on a lot of factors but the primary one is how much time and effort are you willing to invest??

 

[FLASH1296]

Even at low stakes it takes a VERY large bankroll in order to keep your Risk at bay.

Playing at low stakes, (presuming that you have found the 1,000 to 1,500
(minimum bet) "units" that I would suggest), would generate [long range]
average profits of somewhere between 2 and 3 "units" per hour.

So … the answer to your question is a resounding NO.

 

[WannabeCounter]

Depends on a lot of factors but the primary one is how much time and effort are you willing to invest??

I like the casino environment. I like talking to random people about the place. For that reason I don't mind staying in a casino for hours at a time, so between games (I wouldn't like to count non-stop, game-after-game for hours and hours) I could keep myself occupied.
I've got a casino less than a mile from my home so I could easily do a minimum two nights a week, for 3 or 4 hours.

The point is, though, that I've got A Levels to get as well. I want good grades, not just pass grades.

Even at low stakes it takes a VERY large bankroll in order to keep your Risk at bay.

Playing at low stakes, (presuming that you have found the 1,000 to 1,500
(minimum bet) "units" that I would suggest), would generate [long range]
average profits of somewhere between 2 and 3 "units" per hour.

So … the answer to your question is a resounding NO.

I know a little about bankroll and risk of ruin already.
The low stakes that are feasible at the moment equate to something close to national minimum wage.
Imagine that, your counting cards and beating the house but the dealer is probably earning more than you.

 

[Sucker]

Advice please - is counting worth it?

This is like you asking me "Which tastes better - an apple, or an orange?"

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

[21forme]

This is like you asking me "Which tastes better - an apple, or an orange?"

So what's the answer? :grin:

 

[UK-21]

Hi Again,

Quick answers . . .

Should you get a loan to fund your bankroll?
Absolutely not. And if you go on to Uni don't be tempted to use any of your student loan to fund playing cards.

Expected return?
As Flash has said, probably around 2 units per hour long term in a UK game, spreading 1-16. With a table min of £3.00 per unit, you will need a very minimum of £2.5K to address the RoR issue. Some authors reckon it could be as low as 400 units, but Flash errs on the conservative side (for very good reasons). So you'll need £2.5K+ to fund an activity that pays around the National Minimum Wage.

Best game in the UK?
I was there a couple of weeks ago, and the conditions have gone down hill big time. Most of the time, penetration was only around 60%, with only slightly more than two decks out of four being dealt out. Not beatable me thinks.

Playing time?
3-4 hours at a time, twice a week is, IMHO too long. Limit it to an hour a visit and stay disciplined enough to observe this. Don't become a casino rat and spend more time in them than necessary to play your sessions (personally I can't stand the places). And learn to recognise when the time to depart has come and gone and you're still there, and why that is the case. Don't become one of those people who continue to hang around in casinos (after they've finished playing or run out of money) for the buzz they get off of other people's action. That's sad.

Out of interest, is one of your A Level subjects Maths?

Good cards and best of luck.

 

[WannabeCounter]

This is like you asking me "Which tastes better - an apple, or an orange?"

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

I was looking for insight from people on this forum who have experience with counting cards.
Perhaps then I could judge better if the prospect of card counting, for me, is trash or treasure.

Hi Again,

Quick answers . . .

Should you get a loan to fund your bankroll?
Absolutely not. And if you go on to Uni don't be tempted to use any of your student loan to fund playing cards.

Lol. How did you know?

Expected return?
As Flash has said, probably around 2 units per hour long term in a UK game, spreading 1-16. With a table min of £3.00 per unit, you will need a very minimum of £2.5K to address the RoR issue. Some authors reckon it could be as low as 400 units, but Flash errs on the conservative side (for very good reasons). So you'll need £2.5K+ to fund an activity that pays around the National Minimum Wage.

I sometimes think of earning National Minimum Wage at a Blackjack table to not be so bad.
I've had a couple of part-time jobs, and one of the resulting perks of card-counting would be not putting up with an annoying supervisor who won't let you get on with the job.

Best game in the UK?
I was there a couple of weeks ago, and the conditions have gone down hill big time. Most of the time, penetration was only around 60%, with only slightly more than two decks out of four being dealt out. Not beatable me thinks.

I can't remember what the penetration was like at Gala.
Some dealers would cut out 3 decks from a 6 deck game (even with a full table, lol) but others (the one's who vibed with the customers and made a good time of it for themselves) would only cut out 1 from 6.

On a side note: In Gala they hand the cut card to one of the players and sometimes they move it afterwards anyway. I'm thinking what's the point in letting the player decide to cut the deck in the first place?
Understandable if the player attempts an outrageously high penetration like I did, however.

Playing time?
3-4 hours at a time, twice a week is, IMHO too long. Limit it to an hour a visit and stay disciplined enough to observe this. Don't become a casino rat and spend more time in them than necessary to play your sessions (personally I can't stand the places). And learn to recognise when the time to depart has come and gone and you're still there, and why that is the case. Don't become one of those people who continue to hang around in casinos (after they've finished playing or run out of money) for the buzz they get off of other people's action. That's sad.

Out of interest, is one of your A Level subjects Maths?

Lol, why do you hate casinos so much?
Imo, it depends on who you're there with, and what kind of people you get talking to when your there.
Cocky staff members annoy me though. There's this one girl at my local who says things like "too greedy" and such when you bust. She was reading Harry Potter on the front desk one time and I spoilt the ending for her because she annoys me.

And no, I'm not naturally good at maths (KO System, lol). I'm doing English Language, History and Law.

 

[matt21]

I've spent time dealing cards to myself, learning BS, practicing counting and index plays. But....perhaps I shouldn't?

People on here have played at the tables so I could really use your advice on this.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=13026

Have you had a look at this thread before? Hopefully that will give you some of the answers.

You never know where the road is going to take you, unless you start travelling down the road.

Good luck,
Matt21

 

[Sucker]

On a side note: In Gala they hand the cut card to one of the players and sometimes they move it afterwards anyway. I'm thinking what's the point in letting the player decide to cut the deck in the first place?
Understandable if the player attempts an outrageously high penetration like I did, however.

Next time you're in a casino; pay close attention to what is REALLY going on with the cut card, and you'll be able to answer your own question. :grin:

 

[WannabeCounter]

Next time you're in a casino; pay close attention to what is REALLY going on with the cut card, and you'll be able to answer your own question. :grin:

All I ever noticed is that the dealer took the cards that the play cut from the deck and moved them to the top...and then put the cut card somewhere else themselves.

 

[tthree]

All I ever noticed is that the dealer took the cards that the play cut from the deck and moved them to the top...and then put the cut card somewhere else themselves.

That is standard procedure. The player randomizes the start of the deal with a cut. then the dealer places the cut card to set the penetration.

 

[Sucker]

All I ever noticed is that the dealer took the cards that the play cut from the deck and moved them to the top...and then put the cut card somewhere else themselves.

Then why do you seem to be saying that the PLAYERS are controlling, or at least are TRYING to control the pen?

 

[WannabeCounter]

Then why do you seem to be saying that the PLAYERS are controlling, or at least are TRYING to control the pen?

Are you one of those keyboard ninjas who is well-informed on a certain topic but enjoys catching out noobs like me who are ignorant on the finer details?

If not, then why do you seem to be saying things that suggest you are? :grin:

 

[Sucker]

Are you one of those keyboard ninjas who is well-informed on a certain topic but enjoys catching out noobs like me who are ignorant on the finer details?

If not, then why do you seem to be saying things that suggest you are? :grin:

I have no intention in engaging in flame wars with you or anyone else, so please don't try to f*** with me.

My agenda here is to help out the beginners and other less experienced players. You made it quite clear that you think that the players' cut sets the penetration in a blackjack game. This is FAR from a "fine" detail. OK - nothing wrong with being a noob; but no one can help you without having SOME idea of your understanding of this game. Chill out, dude. :whip:

 

[Gamblor]

Are you one of those keyboard ninjas who is well-informed on a certain topic but enjoys catching out noobs like me who are ignorant on the finer details?

If not, then why do you seem to be saying things that suggest you are? :grin:

Oh jeez.

 

[collegebj]

I have no intention in engaging in flame wars with you or anyone else, so please don't try to f*** with me.

My agenda here is to help out the beginners and other less experienced players. You made it quite clear that you think that the players' cut sets the penetration in a blackjack game. This is FAR from a "fine" detail. OK - nothing wrong with being a noob; but no one can help you without having SOME idea of your understanding of this game. Chill out, dude. :whip:

He obviously has some idea of the game, you take your criticism to far way to often. That being said you are wrong. My local place uses the players cut as the pen, as long as it is close to one deck cut off, which is their usual pen. So to say he has no idea makes you look ignorant and a snob.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Is Anything Worth Anything?

CC is similar to any investment. There are winners and losers.

You often get out of it what you put into it.
That's what she said!

 

[Sucker]

He obviously has some idea of the game, you take your criticism to far way to often. That being said you are wrong. My local place uses the players cut as the pen, as long as it is close to one deck cut off, which is their usual pen. So to say he has no idea makes you look ignorant and a snob.

Wow. NO one has so far criticized anyone at ALL, let alone "too far too often"; at least not until YOU came along with this lecture. And please show me where I said he had no idea. To put these words in my mouth like this makes YOU out to be the one who looks ignorant.

Am I the only one who's noticed the frequency of persecution complexes in some of the newer members here? They can't ALL be new accounts from the genius. :laugh:

 

[kewljason]

Am I the only one who's noticed the frequency of persecution complexes in some of the newer members here? They can't ALL be new accounts from the genius. :laugh:

Hardly. There were several threads from myself, machinist and several others, 5 weeks ago, dealing with the influx of new players and similarities of certain traits and writing styles. :sad: Several explanations arose at that time ranging from the closing of poker sites to a 'different google search algorithm' directing people here.

I personally never bought into any of it, but what are you going to about it. :sad: I am not going to speak for anyone, but it probably isn't a coincidence that many of the regulars seem to be posting a lot less frequently, not wanting to deal with this nonsence. :sad: