An Episode at Harrahs

Nightshifter

Well-Known Member
#1
Well, here we go again with the ASMs that seem to move 14 or more ten valued cards together towards the bottom of the deck. Again, I was playing at Harrahs putting the thought of bad variance at the forefront of my last mishap there... Wouldn't you know, the same thing was happening. Groups of low cards, nearly 25 at sometimes (this is a double deck game 75% penetration) followed by solid groups of 10 valued cards in which everyone gets 20 with maybe a 9 in there! So after losing $2300 dollars (and I was being conservative here) I pointed this out to the Pit and the other 2 players. I told the boss that there are no 10s mixed in with the other cards for the majority of the time. Look at the last three rounds in the discard try... not one single 10 valued card! So he took the cards from the discard rack and fanned them out... indeed no 10s for about 25 cards... But look... there's like nearly 20 of them right at the beginning mixed in with some 9s & 8s... OH! He then replies to me that it was because a lot of 10s came out already ... LOLOLOLOL! Exactly! You should see a 10 in every 3.3 cards on average... but this was going on for a few hours (shame on me for playing that long). I played a strict game using HOPTII... spread to a couple hands on a +15 true count about 2/3rds of the cards dealt and received a bunch of shit... Aces with low cards again... so I told him... fan the rest of the cards in the dealers hand... I bet there's a bunch of 10 valued cards behind that cut card... He wouldn't do it. The other 2 players noted this as well when I pointed it out... it was just way off from even what was considered bad variance.... So these Indian Casinos are using chipped ASMs to produce clumps of 10s so the majority of us will cut them out of play, or they'll all come out at once at some point creating a solid push effectively removing them from the deck legally! What more proof do you want? I really wish I could of recorded this episode with my iPhone :/
 
#2
Look, I've always been open to the possibility of compromised ASMs clumping 10s (moreso than many of the other APs around); I even remember running some of the numbers that someone compiled over many hours of watching a couple years ago, and it did look... suspect. But it wasn't near enough data (nor was the data trustable enough, in terms of collection quality). Truth is though, the longer this drags on as speculation and without confirmation, the longer I simply don't think it's true because it would have come out by now. Yes, most pit critters are idiots, but most in surveillance know how to roughly watch the running count so they can analyze a player's play to see if they are likely to be counting. Let's look at the situation from a surveillance operator's perspective (who does not know the casino has deployed "beast mode"--the casino would want as few people to know about it as possible).

Imagine you're a surveillance operator and you identify a counter, you inform the floor supervisor, and then notice that the casino has stopped kicking counters out: you informed the floor, but they decided to just let the counter continue playing. This is now happening EVERY TIME; they let the counter stay... but when you come back to the table in a little while, the counter's pile of chips is nearly gone, same as everyone else at the table. Eventually you get curious why they don't kick the counter out anymore, and why it seems like the counters keep losing as soon as you let the floor manager know. As a surveillance operator, you would start to suspect potential dealer cheating, so you watch the dealer closely after informing the floor of counters; he's dealing a fine game. But since you've started watching, you do notice that every time after informing the floor, the critter goes over to the table, he presses a/some buttons on the ASM and restarts the next shuffle even if it doesn't look like anything was wrong with the one in progress (no red lights). And then, next shoe... they players start losing.

I don't see it as possible that multiple surveillance operators would not notice, and that multiple ones would not have major ethical issues with it (or be frightened for their careers if they didn't deal with casino cheating). So they would contact GCB.

If casinos were deploying "beast mode" this would have happened at least once, but probably many times. It hasn't. That it has been this long since people first were noticing and making the claims and it still has not come out just, to me, makes it incredibly unlikely that it is happening. It's more likely our crappy human brains falling prey to seeing patterns that aren't there.

I also think it is likely casinos would start leaving beast mode on all of (or most of) the time, because they notice how much it increases the hold percentage for a table using it (remember, it disadvantages everyone, not just counters) and casino owners are dumb enough to think it would go unnoticed. This would make it even more obvious and the odds of it not leaking would increase even more.

That said, if you are playing and suspect a casino is cheating, same rule should apply as when you suspect a dealer is dealing seconds: leave.
 

beating vegas

Well-Known Member
#3
Nightshifter said:
Well, here we go again with the ASMs that seem to move 14 or more ten valued cards together towards the bottom of the deck. Again, I was playing at Harrahs putting the thought of bad variance at the forefront of my last mishap there... Wouldn't you know, the same thing was happening. Groups of low cards, nearly 25 at sometimes (this is a double deck game 75% penetration) followed by solid groups of 10 valued cards in which everyone gets 20 with maybe a 9 in there! So after losing $2300 dollars (and I was being conservative here) I pointed this out to the Pit and the other 2 players. I told the boss that there are no 10s mixed in with the other cards for the majority of the time. Look at the last three rounds in the discard try... not one single 10 valued card! So he took the cards from the discard rack and fanned them out... indeed no 10s for about 25 cards... But look... there's like nearly 20 of them right at the beginning mixed in with some 9s & 8s... OH! He then replies to me that it was because a lot of 10s came out already ... LOLOLOLOL! Exactly! You should see a 10 in every 3.3 cards on average... but this was going on for a few hours (shame on me for playing that long). I played a strict game using HOPTII... spread to a couple hands on a +15 true count about 2/3rds of the cards dealt and received a bunch of shit... Aces with low cards again... so I told him... fan the rest of the cards in the dealers hand... I bet there's a bunch of 10 valued cards behind that cut card... He wouldn't do it. The other 2 players noted this as well when I pointed it out... it was just way off from even what was considered bad variance.... So these Indian Casinos are using chipped ASMs to produce clumps of 10s so the majority of us will cut them out of play, or they'll all come out at once at some point creating a solid push effectively removing them from the deck legally! What more proof do you want? I really wish I could of recorded this episode with my iPhone :/
Im pissed off for you. I don’t know you but that’s some bull shit for them to pull.

We have to educate the plopees and have them turn on the casino.

I know I spelled the Word wrong.
 

Nightshifter

Well-Known Member
#4
LOL! Yeah and they don't wash the cards anymore... the decks come out presorted in a plastic container that's sealed by??? The tables have card readers on them and the dealer punches in the amount you bought in... and the chips are chipped with the tables having sensors at each betting spot to record your play... I'm serious... the Pit Boss was explaining all this to me... So now they don't have to eye your play because the computer is doing everything accordingly... they don't have the little monitor near the discard tray and punch in numbers with the end of their pens anymore... not at this casino anyhoo Anyway, what's funny is when I was at Coconut Creek Casino one time, and they bought out the 6 Deck Brick... the dealer flubbed and spilt at least 2 decks worth of cards all over... and low and behold... I kid you not.. the cards were in sequential order like this... AA,22,33,44,55 then a serious of 10s... then another series of 7,8,9s then another series of 10s... and they do a real tight wash then they go into the grinder :p I can't say that for the whole deck, but for what was flubbed.. it wasn't normal at all. Why they don't leave the cards in their natural pack order ..hmmm
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#7
I have voiced my opinion, concerns and experience on this topic and see no sense in repeating and rehashing every few months. But I will say this: I don't know anyone that has gotten access to one of these machines and been able to play around with it for a while, that hasn't concluded that these machines, especially the later models have the capability (with a minor adjustment) to clump cards in a manner that is unfavorable to traditional card counters. The people that argue this haven't owned and played around with such a machine and often are people that have some sort of association or connection with the casino industry.

Once someone gets their hands on the equipment and can see for themselves, the question becomes not about capability, but rather if the casino industry would stoop to the level of doing this. And the answer to that is....."Mind play". The casino industry knew the Mind play technology was illegal from day 1. They didn't need anyone to tell them that it was illegal. They chose to use it anyway until they were forced to stop. That is what this industry is and does. There are no morals. o_O

The idea that surveillance operators would say anything? Again, I go back to Mind Play. Surveillance was complicit in that! Why would anyone think they are looking out for us? :rolleyes:

And the final question raised: Why has no one contacted Gaming? Gaming is aware of this issue. That is all I am going to say. It would take an official complain, proof and probably some publicity for anything to come of this. Advantage players aren't going to file such a compliant. I learned that when I brought my experience to light. And most of the non-AP players that are also "victims" to this technology, don't even know that they are victims. The few that figure out something is wrong, just stop playing against those particular machines.

I suspect some day this will come to light. But it isn't going to be a major lawsuit (probably should be). It won't even be a fine involved or if there is, it will be minor. It will most likely just be a ruling by gaming that the shuffle involved isn't a random shuffle and they have to stop doing it. Mind Play all over again. :(
 
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psyduck

Well-Known Member
#8
With modern computer technology, sorting/clumping cards is an easy task for the machine. Whether the casinos chose to do it is another question and needs proof. Casinos are money driven. It will not surprise me if they controlled the machine to some degree to that capability. When one has no evidence to prove it either way, it is nonsense to simply call it nonsense.
 

Nightshifter

Well-Known Member
#10
Well the PBs reply was... these sorta things happen :) Well yes they do in the world of probabilities, but this is really pushing it outside the bellcurve for a long duration of time. Another thing... I had never heard a worthwhile excuse as to why they won't show anyone the cards...? I keep hearing... there's no need... it'll waste more time... the machine counts the cards and knows if and what type of cards are missing (oh.. so we know it can read the cards then). Oh well then just give me a marker for X amount... you don't need to see my credit information... WE don't need to see his credit information... These aren't the droids you're looking for... LOL!

Organized crime, well... legal corporate industries nowadays (can't use that slogan anymore and they don't break your legs anymore... just issue credit cards) has a stronghold in the world of gambling whether you believe it or not still... Money has been invested into changing them old Indian Bingo Tents into gambling Haciendas overnight... why? No need to skim... we don't have to pay taxes legally now! A lot of this money is recirculated into construction here in Southern California (another crooked outfit). There's an excellent book written about this called Wampum. Mormons, Organized Crime, Politicians (organized crime at a higher level), Indians, Cartels... all but different sides of the cube presented to us as legitimate businesses these days.

Now wait... is this all hearsay? Absolutely! :D
 
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beating vegas

Well-Known Member
#11
Nightshifter said:
Well the PBs reply was... these sorta things happen :) Well yes they do in the world of probabilities, but this is really pushing it outside the bellcurve for a long duration of time. Another thing... I had never heard a worthwhile excuse as to why they won't show anyone the cards...? I keep hearing... there's no need... it'll waste more time... the machine counts the cards and knows if and what type of cards are missing (oh.. so we know it can read the cards then). Oh well then just give me a marker for X amount... you don't need to see my credit information... WE don't need to see his credit information... These aren't the droids you're looking for... LOL!

Organized crime, well... legal corporate industries nowadays (can't use that slogan anymore and they don't break your legs anymore... just issue credit cards) has a stronghold in the world of gambling whether you believe it or not still... Money has been invested into changing them old Indian Bingo Tents into gambling Haciendas overnight... why? No need to skim... we don't have to pay taxes legally now! A lot of this money is recirculated into construction here in Southern California (another crooked outfit). There's an excellent book written about this called Wampum. Mormons, Organized Crime, Politicians (organized crime at a higher level), Indians, Cartels... all but different sides of the cube presented to us as legitimate businesses these days.

Now wait... is this all hearsay? Absolutely! :D
Jessie Ventura and you would have great conversations.
 
#12
If it really is so, why don't you just put a min bet in the "low clump cards" and a high bet on the "high clump cards"? Why can't you find a way to cut the high cards on top of the shoe every shoe?
Either, this is bullsh... or you have no clue on how to beat a casino.
 

LC Larry

Well-Known Member
#13
The G Man said:
If it really is so, why don't you just put a min bet in the "low clump cards" and a high bet on the "high clump cards"? Why can't you find a way to cut the high cards on top of the shoe every shoe?
Either, this is bullsh... or you have no clue on how to beat a casino.
I'm going with the former.
 
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