AOII and Zen Bet Spread

#1
There have been quite some discussion on AOII and Zen counts. The only real agreement has been Calson's betting, as published, is a little flawed or contradictory. Since I learned both Zen and AOII from Carlson's book, I question my betting progressions. So for both SD(H17, 1/4 estimation) and Shoes with say a 1-5 bet spread...

1. At what TCs do you increase your AOII bet?

1. At what TCs do you increase your Zen bet?

I am hoping to hear from both Zen and AOII advocates. Any additional information is welcome.

Thanks in Advance!
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#2
jon said:
1. At what TCs do you increase your AOII bet?

1. At what TCs do you increase your Zen bet?
It will depend on the game you are playing. Some games will give you an advantage at +1 while others may take until +2 or +3 to get a big enough advantage to raise your bets (or Wong in). In general, the count where you raise your bets will be the same for any system, only the size of the bet might change. For most shoe games you can start raising your bets by +2TC no matter what system you use.

In the case of Zen vs. AOII, the bets ramps will probably look identical since the counts are so similar. However, AOII will give you a little more profit because it is more accurate in finding the positive counts.

-Sonny-
 

rukus

Well-Known Member
#3
this was the basis for my intial post that started the whole thing a few days ago. bottom line is you need a simulator to calc your advantage at each true count for each of the systems (at least i couldnt gather anything beyond "depeding on the rules AOII advantage increases by about 0.3% per true count, depending on rules, etc"). then given that advantage, and your given bankroll, you can calculate your optimal kelly bet at each count, if you plan to follow some sort of kelly betting schedule, which it seems like you do. thats about all the help i can be on these two systems but im sure some others can def chime in.
 
#4
Sonny said:
In the case of Zen vs. AOII, the bets ramps will probably look identical since the counts are so similar. However, AOII will give you a little more profit because it is more accurate in finding the positive counts.
BUT NOT without accurate employment of the Ace side count!
 

jimmtech

Well-Known Member
#5
Ao2

Disappointed with Hi-Lo performance and wanting more, I bought BJ for Blood a couple months ago. Mostly after Don's comments in BJA3 and seeing comparisons of PE and IC so much higher than Hi-Lo as listed on QFIT and other sites. It has been very very tough to master this count - with Hi-Lo I could count a deck down in 12-14 seconds; with AOII I am now only down to around 30 seconds. It has been very tough to re-learn especially the 7 and 9 values. I had burned it into my brain to completely disregard these. I still have many weeks of practice to go before I am casino-ready again. I can honestly say that learning this count was tougher than learning Hi-Lo even with a couple years counting experience under my belt. I have not yet begun to address the issue of an Ace side count yet, but was dis-heartened to hear the dissing of this count in favor of Zen. I am too much invested in these tag values to try change.

I could not understand the betting in BJ Blood at all. I can estimate the TC ok, and I too have been searching for AOII TC advantages. Assuming for Hi-Lo a .5% increase a betting schedule might look like:

TC Units
>1 1 or 0
2 2
3 4
4 8
5 10
6+ 12

I thought I could simply double the TCs but apparently its around .3% ?

Would it be safe to say the above translated to AOII would be something like:

TC Units
>2 1 or 0
3 2
4 3
5 3
6 4
7 5
8 5
9 6
10 7
11 8
12 8

Wow, seems way too conservative - are there players here using TC based bets with an AOII count?

Also, I have noticed numerous AOII indices not listed where they exist for Hi-Lo - I realize they are not the I18, but I would still like know them nonetheless - with some rough calculations, I have found that to convert Hi-Lo indices to AOII, mulitply by 1.2 or 1.4 for minus plays, and 2.2 to 2.4 for plus plays, not gospel, but this is what I found in comparing them.

Is this really worth it:

The most useful thing I found before concerning this question was a booklet of sims covering all games and rules along with penetration. John Auston did this a while back. I looked around on the internet and found a place that still sells the one for A02.... http://www.bjrnet.com/shop/blackjackreports.htm .

Any and all advice appreciated..

Thanks
 
#6
rukus said:
"depeding on the rules AOII advantage increases by about 0.3% per true count, depending on rules, etc").
Use .275 or even .250 to be conservative. The rules ONLY affect starting edge, NOT the amount increase per count. zg
 
#7
jimmtech said:
I could not understand the betting in BJ Blood at all. I can estimate the TC ok, and I too have been searching for AOII TC advantages. Assuming for Hi-Lo a .5% increase a betting schedule might look like:

TC Units
>1 1 or 0
2 2
3 4
4 8
5 10
6+ 12

I thought I could simply double the TCs ?
Yes, just double them for ZEN/AO2... BUT remember, AO2 is obsolete*. zg
 
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