AP vs Cheat

Discussion in 'General' started by Percy, Nov 2, 2011.

  1. Percy

    Percy Well-Known Member

    An extract from Steve Forte's Casino Game Protection reads:

    "Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality"

    I was quite surprised by this, what does everyone else think?
  2. tthree

    tthree Banned

    Look at the source.
  3. Forte

    Forte needs to have a discussion on this matter with an AP who is not a pussy in a very private location.:mad:

  4. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member

    the courts have decided

    He needs to be sued
  5. kewljason

    kewljason Well-Known Member

    I think you guys are taking things too personal. He didn't say that card counters and AP were cheaters. He specifically said that the law distinguishes that they are not. He was simple stating, that from the casinos point of view, both activities one legal, the other not legal, will have the same outcome, to harm the bottom line and as such both are viewed as unfavorable and undesirable by the casino. Nothing new here. Not sure what you all are getting so worked up about? :eek:
  6. Richard Munchkin

    Richard Munchkin Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I agree with Steve. Both the cheater, and the advantage player are looking for ways to extract money from a casino.

    I played with computers when it was legal. Then they changed the law so I stopped. Someone who plays with a computer now is cheating. Is that person so different than me?

    Some players practice thousands of hours trying to control dice. They are trying to control the outcome of the game, and this is not cheating. Someone who slides the dice is cheating. Are those players really so different?
  7. Richard

    Geez man,,you just made no sense at all:laugh:

  8. David Spence

    David Spence Member

    Steve is simply giving an accurate definition of two professions, with which I completely agree.

    I think we sometimes make the mistake of confusing what is legal and what is moral. Hole carding, for example, has been found in the courts to be legal. Even if someone considers the practice immoral, it's inaccurate to call a hole carder a cheater; he simply is an immoral AP in that person's opinion.

    Steve's definition wisely avoids the murky area of morality.
  9. David

    Murky morality, hmmm,,cute,,,I consider the casino, hands down, as extremely immoral, and any one who can turn the tables on them is "high Five" in my book:grin::cool: Nothing "murky" there David.;)

    Well Dave, while we are at it,,,what side of the fence are you,,,on??:)

  10. Gamblor

    Gamblor Well-Known Member

    "Often, when you compare a rapist to the legitimate man making love with his wife, the only distinction you will find is one of legality"

    People say things in certain ways, while being totally and technically accurate, of course can convey different things, in this case, intentionally in all likelihood.
  11. David Spence

    David Spence Member

    I'm on the side of the fence that tries to take as much money from casinos as possible using any legal means.

    That said, I generally avoid shottaking. When a shottaking opportunity is presented, and I let it go, I sometimes even think something to the effect of, "That would be beneath me." But when I look back on it, I realize that I'm lying to myself! The reason I don't take shots is not because of some moral high ground; it's that it's generally a bad long-term strategy. Sure, taking a few shots might make a few hundred dollars, but if the welcome mat is withdrawn because someone sees me as a shottaker, that might cost me orders of magnitude more in lost opportunity.
  12. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member

    i call BS

    Everyone who enters a casino
    Tries & wants to win
    There is a range of skills of the patrons
    The casinos can set the rules
    Can ply their patrons often with free drinks
    & they can determine who plays based on their discrimination

    Ever see casino staff let a drumk play on?

    They even call APs cheats, immoral and compare to criminals and apparently even some APs buy the propoganda. I am shocked that many seem not angered by his statement.

    It's very clear his intent, that APs are just like crimimals only protected by law. This type of cultute is why APs can get abused by security or police because we are considered just like criminals.

    APs are nothing like criminals!!!

    Criminals drive cars so everyone who drives has the characteristics of a criminal?
    Everyone who enters a casino tries to win, so all are criminals?
  13. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member


    Some seem to have forgotten or never new the violence casinos have perpetrated against APs & civilians because of this casino culture of labeling APs cheats & criminals. It's really something APs should be very sensitive to so the court rulings don't get turned back.

    If your a BJ player would you like to be thought of as cheater, criminal in the public eye?
  14. David

    David, you are only fooling yourself. When the casino sees you as a threat, because your game has SKILLZ, it matters not how nice you are, how well you tip, how much you chat up the pit, how well you dress, but only that you have SKILLZ, then they will put their boot up your Arse and throw your well behaved self out the door and maybe worse,,,maybe then their local cops, on the pay roll of the casino, will do another number on you. And all this time, you never took any "shots", as you call it.:laugh:

  15. zengrifter

    zengrifter Banned

    Cheating IS AP.

    In days of old there was no distinction - even the best poker players of 20+ years ago were inclined towards "cheating" if they had the right prospect.

    Lawrence Revere also comes to mind. zg
  16. David Spence

    David Spence Member

    By "shottaking," I specifically mean things such as betting more than the game allows, making ambiguous hand signals, making "accidental" bets, etc. None of these has nearly the long-term value of, say, hole carding, which I engage in at every opportunity. Hole carding and other high-edge moves are much less on the casinos' radar than shottaking, with significantly greater expectation. I made no mention of attire, niceness, tips, or chat, so why introduce those elements to the discussion?

    Someone much wiser than I once said, on page 231, "The dealer's primordial enemy is not the professional player; it is The Shottaker."
  17. Machinist

    Machinist Well-Known Member

    I am in agreement with the statement. I hope casinos really do believe this stuff. And here's why.....I want to be back roomed, i want a cop and or security to rough me up a bit.
    I want that multimillion dollar lawsuit. I want them to believe i am cheating,,,, I am prepared....(i think)
    Legal shmegal,,,,,,,,,get the money...run along the gray line if the game allows...
    But , hey what do i know......:(

  18. Sucker

    Sucker Well-Known Member

    Keeping in mind the fact that he prefaced this statement with the word "Often", and not "Always"; how is his statement incorrect?

    For example: I don't mark cards. But I use every legal means I can think of to beat the casino. If card marking were legal, I would probably also be a card marker. So obviously; the only distinction between me and a cheater is one of legality. I fit into Forte's statement perfectly - and I know for a fact that I'm not the only AP who feels this way!
  19. Lonesome Gambler

    Lonesome Gambler Well-Known Member

    David really nailed it here. Forte isn't making an comments on the ethics of advantage play; he's simply observing that advantage play techniques strive to achieve by legal means what the cheater tries to achieve by non-legal means.

    One of the most popular collusion scams involves a dealer flashing her hole card to an agent at the table. The hole card player is trying to achieve the same effect, but since the dealer is ostensibly not exposing the card(s) on purpose, this is legal.

    A past-poster is attempting to collect an unfair payoff, while a legitimate AP may seek out a game specifically because he knows that the dealer is prone to making payoff errors in their favor on a regular basis. A cheater marks cards to determine the value of face-down cards or cards waiting to be dealt; an AP may play warps, unintentionally marked cards, and so on.

    I do agree that this is a bit oversimplified, but cheaters and APs are generally trying to do the same thing: win money from the casino by using methods that the casino does not approve of and (hopefully) does not catch on to. Both use deception to achieve this goal.

    I personally think there is a huge difference between cheaters and APs when taking into considerations such as ethics and intent, but Forte's statement is pretty hard to argue with.
  20. Lonesome

    Than it seems to me you can say the same thing, and apply the same logic, to a person who holds a legal job and goes to work each day, and a bank robber, what the hell, they are both after the same thing, money, just using a different method.:)


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