Are Women Ever Back Roomed?

[Nina]

This site offers some very interesting stories about harassement, illegal detention and other sorts (legal and otherwise) of intimidation by casinos to keep counters at bay.

My question is... Do female counters meet with the same counter-measures? I know that in general one is less likely to suspect a woman of counting. I just wonder what happens if they do catch on.

I'm an attractive and very petite young woman. I just wonder if someone like me could get "back roomed" or man-handled in an attempt to intimidate me. (Certainly I'd scream bloody murder)

Just wondering if anyone has any insight into this.

 

[Sonny]

Only if they meet me in the bar!

> My question is... Do female counters meet with the same counter-measures?

Probably not. Although I'm sure a casino would still backroom a female, I seriously doubt if they would take any physical measures.

> I know that in general one is less likely to suspect a woman of counting. I
> just wonder what happens if they do catch on.

They will not backroom you just because you are counting. If they "catch on" they will start to give you obvious signs that they want you to leave such as crowding you, glaring at you and trying to make you feel uncomfortable.

If that doesn't work, they may flat bet you (restrict your betting to one unit at all times), ask you to stop playing blackjack or ask you (usually politely) to leave the casino.

Backrooming is usually reserved for highly skilled high stakes players (teams, front-loaders, etc.) and suspected cheaters.

> I'm an attractive and very petite young woman. I just wonder if someone like
> me could get "back roomed" or man-handled in an attempt to intimidate me.

Again, I seriously doubt that things would get physical. Imagine what would happen when the newspapers print the story that a casino "roughed up" a poor innocent little girl. I don't think a jury (even in Nevada) would let this case go by.

-Sonny-

P.S.- I have been playing VERY aggressively in Las Vegas for years now and have never been backroomed, or even barred. If you heed all the warning signs then you will always be able to leave before things get "heavy."

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Backrooming isn't common

A casino exposed itself to tremendous liability when they put their filthy rat claws on anyone. Injuries, false imprisonment, kidnapping, extortion, these are just some of the legal issues they risk. With a female involved, the chances of a charge involving sexual abuse are greatly increased. In the old days, they would just have a female security guard or other employee present as a witness, but today in this age of Britney and Madonna that wouldn't mean very much.

My advice is that under no circumstances do you go in the back room with them. That is one time I would fight. See the only reason they would take you there is because they are planning on doing something they don't want anyone to see. That can't be good. You could be dealing with a renegade security guard (and they are everywhere) who really is contemplating a sexual assault. So be careful. But don't worry, worry will distract you from counting.

 

[Nina]

Rights

Ok, that leads me to my next question... If I do nothing illegal (which of course I don't intend on) and they do ask me to go somewhere else in the casino with them, I am under no obligation to go? Further, if they insist can I demand to not go anywhere unless law enforcement is called?
Although I think it to be unlikely, I am very curious as to my rights. I believe anyone that doesn't know exactly what their rights are inevitably has them violated in some way. What is the proper response in such a circumstance?

 

[Sonny]

Your rights

> If I do nothing illegal (which of course I don't intend on) and they do ask
> me to go somewhere else in the casino with them, I am under no obligation
> to go?

That is right. Even if you do something illegal you are not obligated to go to a back room.

> Further, if they insist can I demand to not go anywhere unless law
> enforcement is called?

This is exactly what you should do. If the casino thinks that you are cheating then they have the right to "detain" you until the police arrive. They DO NOT have the right to lock you up or take you to a back room. If they ask you to go to a back room, your best defense is to ask that the police be called. In fact, you do not even need to show them any ID until the police arrive.

Also, ask what you are being charged with. If they are not charging you with a crime then you are free to leave whenever you want.

> I believe anyone that doesn't know exactly what their rights are inevitably
> has them violated in some way.

You are exactly right. If you don't know your rights, how can you protect them?

-Sonny-

 

[Al Rogers]

Get the Casino Abuse of Skilled Players DVD *LINK*

You will learn a lot from it.

 

[suicyco maniac]

DVD

When I bought my copy it was only availible on VHS AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! SM

 

[Al Rogers]

We will exchange it for the DVD

Send it to me at Pi Yee Press, 4855 West Nevso Drive; Las Vegas, NV 89103, with a copy of this post, and we'll send you the DVD at no charge.

Al Rogers
[email protected]

 

[learning to count]

WHAT IS IT WITH YOU GUYS AT BJ21!

Your always treating the customer like he was "RIGHT" or something! Every time I deal with Peeyee Press/BJ21 (Al Rogers) I get treated royaly. So this may be why I continue to do business with you guys!!!! All joking aside BJ21/Stanford Wong always backs their products and treats their customers 100% above and beyond the call of duty. Keep up the good work Al!!!!!

 

[TwuntyWun]

Same heat depending on level of play *LINK*

"My question is... Do female counters meet with the same counter-measures? I know that in general one is less likely to suspect a woman of counting. I just wonder what happens if they do catch on."

I have been subject to the same intimidation and counter-measures (actually a little more) than my male friends. As my action is fairly light this has been nothing I couldn't handle. Glares, snide comments, suddenly bad pen, crowding, distraction, and politely told, "any other game but BJ" --that sort of thing. Although on one occasion, I admit to being fearful as a result of the level of intimidation I received. It seemed to include a cheating dealer and veiled threats. I got out before it got any uglier, so I have no idea how far that would have gone. I don't think anyone gets "backroomed" at my level though, unless they are clearly cheating. I believe backrooming is generally reserved for high-rolling pros, team members, people suspected of cheating, etc.

In several instances when I have been made the casino staff is either amused (and have even shown a little admiration) or angry (like they feel betrayed that a woman would do that to them-- or maybe a little foolish that they let a woman do that to them?) I suspect women have a better chance of getting the first (amused) reaction than men, but may be just as likely to get the second (angry.)

In Munchkin's Gambling Wizards, he interviews Cat Hulbert. The following is an excerpt from a John Grochowski Review:

"There were rough times. She tells of a situation in which she had been barred from playing blackjack in a casino, and the next day carelessly chose the same shift when she went back to play. Hulbert was spotted instantly, and wasn't just asked politely to leave. Security guards grabbed her by the shoulders, pushed her head to the craps table and said to her, "Why don't you play some craps with that cheating money of yours? How about some roulette? But don't you ever, ever come into this casino and play blackjack again."

Keep in mind that Cat was a member of Uston's team, so I suspect her level of play was likely to draw this type of attention. (The times were different then as well.) At that level, then or now, I think gender doesn't matter at all.

 

[Radar]

Does the Same Offer Extend to me and Others, as well?

 

[Al Rogers]

Yes *LINK*

There was never a time when we had only VHS available. We had both VHS and DVD from day one. Eventually, we phased out the VHS, and now have only DVD's.

 

[NealS]

A woman back-rromed in 1981

I was with a small group of players using the David blackjack computers in Reno in 1981. One of the operators was a woman named Ann. We all just played individually, no Big Players. At that time, the computer had not been made illegal in Nevada, but it was also a time when people were sometimes found in the desert or in fields with a bullet in the head.

Anyway, one evening she was playing a small casino in Reno. Unfortunately, 23 years later I do not remember the name of the casino. Anyway, she was unlucky enough to be the third person from our group to play there on the same shift that night. I saw her enter just before I left. Later, at an apartment that we shared, she came in screaming bloody murder. She called a lawyer that we had on retainer. I listened as she told him that she noticed that the pit boss was paying a little to much attention to her, and she was just ready to leave. 2 large Security Guards came up behind her and would not let her move. The Pit Boss said that she had to go with them to the "office". She was a very thin, rather frail woman. She said no, and the 2 goons picked her up and carried her as she kicked and screamed to the back room. They photographed her and told her to leave and not come back again or she would be arrested for trespassing. They did not, however, search her, so they did not find the computer and batteries strapped to her legs. When she went out front, she stood on the street for a while and asked people as they left if they saw her being kidnapped. Nobody was willing to talk to her. The lawyer ended up telling her that it would not be worth suing the casino or trying to file any charges. I saw the bruises on her arms, and it was clear that they handled her roughly, but there was nothing that she could do.