Back betting your own bet? Advantage? Illegal?

[dacium]

I've got to sim this. Particulary at a multi person table.

Also if this is a playeradvantage at a shuffle machine you could clean them out big time. I played yesterday night in Australian casino and came in at any +6 counts and got heat immediatly and I was only betting $20 bets. Asked me to wait for new shoe before I commenced betting. To cool it I went to a stupid shuffle machine 21 game, I got suited 678 spades twice in a row. Anyway at the shuffle machines people do all sorts of crap and they don't care. Like I had people playing perfect pairs bets on my bet without them having a back bet, and the casino didn't care at all. They even let people put perfect pair bets on without any normal bet on anywhere at all. There is no way they would allow that on a shoe (Even though perfect pairs can't be beat they are just strict on the shoe games).

I am trying to find a way to beat the shuffle machines because they are slowly taking over every table. I went down at new years and the night before (which are usually some of the biggest nights of the year) and there were only 4 tables with shoes. The other 30 are now shuffle machines.

 

[dacium]

I have been looking at this and I think the advantage to be gained is alot bigger than expected.

For example it makes it worthwhile almost always split 6's and above no matter what the dealer card, because single 6/7 card is better than a low stiff total. I got my program running now to figure out a new BS for back betters. Then I can pass it to the other program to figure out the EV for this BS.

 

[Monkey!Boy]

Interesting stuff here, but I've never seen back betting in AC or LV. I gather that this is mostly an Aussie thing?

 

[dacium]

I think it is because we only have 6 deck games, and that stat can't defeat the large house edge so they allow it. I think it could beat single deck and certain double deck games in vegas.

 

[ScottH]

I think it is because we only have 6 deck games, and that stat can't defeat the large house edge so they allow it. I think it could beat single deck and certain double deck games in vegas.

You could use backbetting to wong in, Then you are doing it in a plus count and you get an extra .2% becuase of your option not to split.

 

[Brock Windsor]

Back Betting Strategy

Can anyone post all the split strategies for the back bet? They allow this in Montreal where I'll be heading in a few months. While the Pen there is terrible I'll only wong in positive counts with a partner. We could combine our BR's until the back-bet is table maxing.
Thoughts?

 

[Sonny]

Can anyone post all the split strategies for the back bet?

I don't have it handy but you can find it in Wong's Basic BJ book. You could also use the EV Tables (Archive copy) to find the profitable splits.

-Sonny-

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

.2%?

I am sure that it 2%, not 0.2%.

2% advantage would be 52% advantage for the player.

0.2% would be 50.20% advantage for the player.

That would be a 1.8% difference.

On a $20 unit, 50 bets an hour the player would wager $1000 an hour. That would work out to a $20 profit over an hour using the 2% advantage. On the 0.2% that would be only 2 measly dollars.

If I am wrong please correct me but I am sure I am right on this one.

where are you getting that the player starts out with a 0% (50/50) house edge? and when you say "50.2%/52% advantage to the player" i know what you mean, but it looks like your saying the player will win over $5 for every $10 he bets

If the rider's bet is at least 7 times higher than the caller's bet then splitting the 2,2 will help the rider more than it hurts the caller.
-Sonny-

that explains the 7x perfectly

I've got to sim this. Particulary at a multi person table.

Also if this is a playeradvantage at a shuffle machine you could clean them out big time. I played yesterday night in Australian casino and came in at any +6 counts and got heat immediatly and I was only betting $20 bets. Asked me to wait for new shoe before I commenced betting. To cool it I went to a stupid shuffle machine 21 game, I got suited 678 spades twice in a row. Anyway at the shuffle machines people do all sorts of crap and they don't care. Like I had people playing perfect pairs bets on my bet without them having a back bet, and the casino didn't care at all. They even let people put perfect pair bets on without any normal bet on anywhere at all. There is no way they would allow that on a shoe (Even though perfect pairs can't be beat they are just strict on the shoe games).

I am trying to find a way to beat the shuffle machines because they are slowly taking over every table. I went down at new years and the night before (which are usually some of the biggest nights of the year) and there were only 4 tables with shoes. The other 30 are now shuffle machines.

are you talking about ASM or CSM? huge difference, the asm doesnt hurt you, just speeds the game up, and heres a thing most people dont know about csm's, they actually decrease the house edge IF you are only playing basic strategy, so i dont understand why ploppys stay away from them.. yes the csm gets in like 10 more hands per hour, but ploppys are trying to win their money back, they want the game to be fast, so that doesnt explain it..

I think it is because we only have 6 deck games, and that stat can't defeat the large house edge so they allow it. I think it could beat single deck and certain double deck games in vegas.

i truely believe that this could totally reverse the house edge; i think total turnaround could be as high as any card counting system.. the strategy for this would be much different from bs, and i dont think anybody has the sim or strategy to analyze this system yet.. another useful non-counting strategy is scavenger play; buying/selling and/or making a move for another player like doubling for him on A6 vs 5.. i think that this strategy we are talking about and scavenger play could rival counting.. both strategies would sure as hell wipe out the house edge (i would think).. also, you guys are only talking about splits, but what about doubles? you dont have to double with your backbet if you dont want, but then again i doubt there is a time when both of you wouldnt double

also, you guys are talking about playing as a team right? because then you would be able to make more, but at the same time you would need a much more complex strategy, or rather the person making the strategy would have to go thru a lot, because you would have to do an EV vs EV for every split

 

[Sonny]

i truely believe that this could totally reverse the house edge; i think total turnaround could be as high as any card counting system..

A 0.2% increase probably isn’t going to reverse the house edge, but it could cut it in half. As you said, using some scavenger plays could make up for the rest of the house edge if you can find enough opportunities. I don't think it will ever be as high as a counting system, but it could still work.

the strategy for this would be much different from bs, and i dont think anybody has the sim or strategy to analyze this system yet..

The strategy is in Wong’s book. There’s also an updated strategy for this in the GC archives.

also, you guys are only talking about splits, but what about doubles? you dont have to double with your backbet if you dont want, but then again i doubt there is a time when both of you wouldnt double

Exactly. Doubles are always +EV.

also, you guys are talking about playing as a team right? because then you would be able to make more, but at the same time you would need a much more complex strategy, or rather the person making the strategy would have to go thru a lot, because you would have to do an EV vs EV for every split

Team play is really the only way to do the sacrifice splits. I doubt that any other player is going to take the bullet for you. You can still use the regular backline strategy but it isn't worth as much.

-Sonny-

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

i guess the reason its only .2% is because splits dont come up that often? imagine if splits came up like 50% of the time, this would be way better than card counting then

 

[65D]

im missing something.

I get the entire rider/caller part

like the splitting 2's vs dealer ACE example. that makes sence.
Ok so 7 times the rider needs to put up to overcome the caller

but HOW does the rider put up > 7 times the caller???

(as far as I know)...When anyone backlines a bet, they are just GIVING that money to that person to place his own bet. It's that player's right to make all the decisions, and even how to pay the backliner back, if any at all!!!
So if the caller is betting 5, and the rider wants to drop 200.....all that will happen is the caller has a 205 bet out there (in the casino/dealers eyes).

what am i missing?

I guess I do not see the "team" opportunity in this all. I can not even see the scavenger opportunity in it yet...

 

[65D]

That's not what he was looking for. It's back betting on someone, and deciding on whether or not to split with them. If you back bet someone you have the option of not splitting, and playing one of the hands. The edge gained from that option is much higher than .2%. It actually sounds like a good idea to me.

Backbetters have options????


It's been my limited experience that if you back bet someone, you are at the mercy of how THEY want to play everything. If they want to split,double, anything, its all up to them. I have even seen it (a few times) where the guy bet's 100, and he gets backbet 100, then he gets an 11 vrs a dealer 6, and when the backliner guy goes to give his 100 for the double up, then the guy with the hand says "nope, this is all mine" and takes the entire double up himself, which effectivly makes it then a 75/25.

I understand that the backliner has the "option" to not go in and follow through w/ a split. But it's the player w/ the hand that makes that call if it even goes down anyhow.

I guess Maybe I am missing something. But unless the player allows it to be, he has EVERY control over making sure a backliner better is not detrimental to him. (to include the obvious, just NOT allowing any backline bets, or hitting a hard 20 and wasting 10 bucks to equally send that message)

How could a backliner affect the player tho????

 

[BJgenius007]

No I think it's only 0.2%,

0.2% only if you play 2 deck and can resplit aces then double at any two cards.

House advantage is most likely 0.45% for 6 decks and 0.60% for 8 decks for the most common S17 games. Add another 0.20% if you play H17 games.

 

[65D]

That's in order to counteract the sacrifice splits that the "caller" is making. For example, a normal BS player would never split 2,2 vs. A because it will cost him money. However, the "rider" would rather hold a hand of 2 than a hand of 4 vs. the ace. The split would hurt the caller but help the rider. If the rider's bet is at least 7 times higher than the caller's bet then splitting the 2,2 will help the rider more than it hurts the caller.

If the caller doesn't make any sacrifice splits then the EV boost for the rider will be less than 0.2%.

-Sonny-

I have wong's Professional Blackjack, but cant find anything on "sacrifice splitting"

 

[johndoe]

It's only about 0.2% addition to EV when the front player (caller) is sacrificing everything. Otherwise it's much less. It certainly doesn't make the game +EV on its own.

 

[Sonny]

I have wong's Professional Blackjack, but cant find anything on "sacrifice splitting"

It's In Basic Blackjack, not Professional Blacjack. Basic Blackjack has a lot of good information on weird rule variations and promotions.

-Sonny-