backoffs per day
- Thread starter blackriver
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And that's ASSUMING that you make zero mistakes with the more complicated system. But that's not even the REAL story. If; with a big bet out, and while you're desperately counting and analyzing the cards on the table, you happen to miss ONE dealers' mistake, such as an accidental flashing of a card at just the right time; you may have just cost yourself a MONTHS' worth of EV!
And if someone thinks that he can still "handle" all of the possibilities and/or opportunities that may come along; he's only fooling HIMSELF.
And if someone thinks that he can still "handle" all of the possibilities and/or opportunities that may come along; he's only fooling HIMSELF.
Do you play video games?
One time in the past, I was an arcade junkie.
I started with Atari, and advanced to SNES, PS, etc., and ultimately to XB360 & PS3.
I don’t play video games anymore, although I’m waiting for Gears of War 3 for nostalgic reasons.
I recall when I used to play video games a lot, after beating it in normal difficulty, I would push the difficulty level up a notch and play it all over again. Why? Unless you once played video games, it’s impossible to explain.
Yes, the game selection and the “art” of blackjack are all very important.
But you must ask yourself, why are you doing all this in the first place?
If you just want to pay the bills and put food on the table, then your goal is different from mine.
I have a “legitimate” job and financial security. I don’t *need* blackjack.
One time in the past, I was an arcade junkie.
I started with Atari, and advanced to SNES, PS, etc., and ultimately to XB360 & PS3.
I don’t play video games anymore, although I’m waiting for Gears of War 3 for nostalgic reasons.
I recall when I used to play video games a lot, after beating it in normal difficulty, I would push the difficulty level up a notch and play it all over again. Why? Unless you once played video games, it’s impossible to explain.
Yes, the game selection and the “art” of blackjack are all very important.
But you must ask yourself, why are you doing all this in the first place?
If you just want to pay the bills and put food on the table, then your goal is different from mine.
I have a “legitimate” job and financial security. I don’t *need* blackjack.
Hey Sucker,
I really have nothing to gain by making false claims to anonymous strangers on an internet forum.
The chances are, I probably will never meet any of you in person.
With big bets out, the dealers are more careful with payouts. They meticulously break the chips down to show the camera. Not only that, the dealers seem to purposely slow down with big bets.
The payouts are usually “sized” in, and even the 3:2 payouts are broken down and then sized in.
For those who play sports (or video games for that matter), there’s a concept call “muscle memory”. When you learn something new, you need to think and figure out what you’re doing. With repetition, the motion becomes automatic and almost subconscious. I don’t add up my hands anymore. With a quick glance in a fraction of a second, I can tell whether I busted.
I really have nothing to gain by making false claims to anonymous strangers on an internet forum.
The chances are, I probably will never meet any of you in person.
With big bets out, the dealers are more careful with payouts. They meticulously break the chips down to show the camera. Not only that, the dealers seem to purposely slow down with big bets.
The payouts are usually “sized” in, and even the 3:2 payouts are broken down and then sized in.
For those who play sports (or video games for that matter), there’s a concept call “muscle memory”. When you learn something new, you need to think and figure out what you’re doing. With repetition, the motion becomes automatic and almost subconscious. I don’t add up my hands anymore. With a quick glance in a fraction of a second, I can tell whether I busted.
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Ya know, getting into these level 3 counts and higher is just silly to me. There are NO established money players that I know or know of that put that much effort into the weakest form of AP.....counting. I guess if you really are in it for the fun and want to see how complicated you can make a tiny advantage than it may be worth it. But for many that just play for purely capitalistic reasons, counting is just the gateway drug into the world of AP. Buffing up your shiny new sportscar's fresh paintjob isn't going to make it go any faster if the engine is a dog. I would quit this game altogether if counting's edge was all there was.....no matter what count was used. And as far as backoffs go, counters are by far the easiest to spot and shut down.
I've been backed off last summer at the Spaniard four times during my trip then. I went back there a few weeks ago and played 15 hours over 2 days because the pit boss thought I was one of the worst players he's seen. They back so many people off that they can't remember everyone.
At a store in PA that I used to play regularly, I got backed off for winning a little over $1000 in a night. Now I just avoid that shift and wong in on the quarter tables using the knockout count since they cover the discard tray. I flat bet a quarter when the running count is greater than the key count and wong out when the count is less than the key count.
At a store in PA that I used to play regularly, I got backed off for winning a little over $1000 in a night. Now I just avoid that shift and wong in on the quarter tables using the knockout count since they cover the discard tray. I flat bet a quarter when the running count is greater than the key count and wong out when the count is less than the key count.
OK, You Drew Me in, to Your Sorrow LOL
Mistakes?
Comparing hi lo to halves for betting:
hi lo errors every time a 2,5,7 & 9 go by when comparing EOR. That's 16 errors per deck.
Halves is about 5% better then hi lo
The proof of burden is on the hi lo player to make it up
What is the standard for being able to handle a count? a deck in 30 seconds; if one can do it, then they are not desparately trying to do anything. They can talk and pay attention to all just like the hi lo player.
On standards, if you can't count down a deck in 30s with a particular count, then that count is perhaps not for you?
If one is a resizing bettor that 5% improvement for halves is magnified to about 10%. Now, we are cooking with heat!
Your statment of 1 flashed card can equal MONTHS in ev is quite a bit overstated. Unless one plays very little.
I would not think there is much to be gained by going higher then
level 3 or 4, Revere RAPC being level 4 (BC 1.0) and halves being
level 3 (BC .99).
good cards
:joker::whip:
Mistakes?
Comparing hi lo to halves for betting:
hi lo errors every time a 2,5,7 & 9 go by when comparing EOR. That's 16 errors per deck.
Halves is about 5% better then hi lo
The proof of burden is on the hi lo player to make it up
What is the standard for being able to handle a count? a deck in 30 seconds; if one can do it, then they are not desparately trying to do anything. They can talk and pay attention to all just like the hi lo player.
On standards, if you can't count down a deck in 30s with a particular count, then that count is perhaps not for you?
If one is a resizing bettor that 5% improvement for halves is magnified to about 10%. Now, we are cooking with heat!
Your statment of 1 flashed card can equal MONTHS in ev is quite a bit overstated. Unless one plays very little.
I would not think there is much to be gained by going higher then
level 3 or 4, Revere RAPC being level 4 (BC 1.0) and halves being
level 3 (BC .99).
good cards
:joker::whip:
If someone is playing at an average advantage of 2% and decides to switch his counting system to one that's 10% better, that means he's upped his overall edge to 2.2%. Definitely an improvement, but hardly "cooking with heat".
Ok - let's say HOURS or maybe even DAYS of EV instead of a month. But the first time it happens to you; that you gain 8 or MORE maximum bets because of ONE card that gets flashed in the blink of an eye, you'll understand my point. On a public message board I really cannot go any further into how I derive at this.
I'll give you THIS one also. "Desperately" was a poor choice of words on my part, and (unintentionally) misleading. But what I was trying to say was that; in order to count cards, you have to be able to SEE them. It doesn't matter HOW good you are at counting down a deck, if in the split second that you glance at a card you happen to miss something more important, you're missing out on an opportunity. I'll be the first to admit that many times have I caught myself missing a very important piece of information because I was not looking in the right place at the right time, or even because I happened to blink at the wrong time.
I agree 100%, and for the rest of this thread I'll post no more on this subject. You and I probably are in perfect agreement on most of these matters anyway, but I've learned that sometimes internet discussions can somehow lead to major misunderstandings between the parties.
Ok - let's say HOURS or maybe even DAYS of EV instead of a month. But the first time it happens to you; that you gain 8 or MORE maximum bets because of ONE card that gets flashed in the blink of an eye, you'll understand my point. On a public message board I really cannot go any further into how I derive at this.
I'll give you THIS one also. "Desperately" was a poor choice of words on my part, and (unintentionally) misleading. But what I was trying to say was that; in order to count cards, you have to be able to SEE them. It doesn't matter HOW good you are at counting down a deck, if in the split second that you glance at a card you happen to miss something more important, you're missing out on an opportunity. I'll be the first to admit that many times have I caught myself missing a very important piece of information because I was not looking in the right place at the right time, or even because I happened to blink at the wrong time.
I agree 100%, and for the rest of this thread I'll post no more on this subject. You and I probably are in perfect agreement on most of these matters anyway, but I've learned that sometimes internet discussions can somehow lead to major misunderstandings between the parties.
Halves Crushes Hi Lo
When you say a 2.0% to 2.2% improvement you are stating stats that are misleading because it does not show the magnitude of difference. Actually, Halves beats Hi Lo by about 15% in shoes and a little less in DD. So with resizing bets it goes to about a 20% to 30% improvement. With a 10g bank it's about a $5 to $10 improvement an hr. What about a 30g bank? Then it goes to $15 to $30 an hour difference. Let's look at NO, if you have a NO of 200 hrs it can be cut to 180 hrs or less with Halves vs Hi Lo. If one can count down a deck using hi lo and halves in under 30 seconds, which one should they use?
Having said that, hi lo is a great count.
Not that I am biased, not at all
I just like money
good cards
:joker::whip:
When you say a 2.0% to 2.2% improvement you are stating stats that are misleading because it does not show the magnitude of difference. Actually, Halves beats Hi Lo by about 15% in shoes and a little less in DD. So with resizing bets it goes to about a 20% to 30% improvement. With a 10g bank it's about a $5 to $10 improvement an hr. What about a 30g bank? Then it goes to $15 to $30 an hour difference. Let's look at NO, if you have a NO of 200 hrs it can be cut to 180 hrs or less with Halves vs Hi Lo. If one can count down a deck using hi lo and halves in under 30 seconds, which one should they use?
Having said that, hi lo is a great count.
Not that I am biased, not at all
I just like money
good cards
:joker::whip:
100 * 100 is an easy task. 100 + 100 is not a hard task either. but adding 1 + 1 is easier. the more of your calculatiojns you can make into 1 + 1 the more of your mental capacity you can use to charm staff, not look like a counter, shuffletrack, ace seq, scavenge catch dealer errors. if you can do all of that with 100% efficiency you shouldnt be playing blackjack.
You must have some limit to your mental capacity. even if you could do everything at once surely youd burn out sooner than just doing the stuff that matters most.
You must have some limit to your mental capacity. even if you could do everything at once surely youd burn out sooner than just doing the stuff that matters most.
ummmmm
No, he sad 2.0% to 2.2%, then one has to figure it's 10%. Those small numbers make the difference seem small, when indeed it is not!
When it can actually be a lot more
and
10% improvement is a large number if thinking big
like with 30g banks as I pointed out.
Also, don't forget it swells to about 20% if resizing your bank.
Now, 20% is a big number.
or if you wish
2.0% to approx 2.4%
It's a little math trick (not saying anyone is intending to be tricky) to say the difference is .4% instead of saying a 20% increase.
As a group the higher level counts crush the lower level one's, or else they would not be discussed at all. Sims prove this. Then it becomes an issue of can one use them and do they want the extra reward for perceived effort?
good cards
:joker::whip:
No, he sad 2.0% to 2.2%, then one has to figure it's 10%. Those small numbers make the difference seem small, when indeed it is not!
When it can actually be a lot more
and
10% improvement is a large number if thinking big
like with 30g banks as I pointed out.
Also, don't forget it swells to about 20% if resizing your bank.
Now, 20% is a big number.
or if you wish
2.0% to approx 2.4%
It's a little math trick (not saying anyone is intending to be tricky) to say the difference is .4% instead of saying a 20% increase.
As a group the higher level counts crush the lower level one's, or else they would not be discussed at all. Sims prove this. Then it becomes an issue of can one use them and do they want the extra reward for perceived effort?
good cards
:joker::whip:
your post implies a 2.0 to 2.2% increase, when in fact he agrees it is a 10% improvement...perhaps saying "going from a 2.0 to a 2.2% increase using..." would have been clearer
isn't your "swells to 20% if using resizing" extremely biased? is there any benefit in resizing any level count, or just multi?
isn't your "swells to 20% if using resizing" extremely biased? is there any benefit in resizing any level count, or just multi?
A Biiiiig 10%
I still say 2.0% to 2.2% is misleading vs stating a 10% improvement, though they are the same thing. We can disagree. However, I will say this is one reason SCORE became popular because it's easier to see differences in $, which I also pointed out.
The 10% improvement is very misleading because it assumes one is betting the same thing with both counts. It has one underbetting the superior count.
With a 10g kelly flat betting bank (not considering variance):
With hi lo you bet $200 with a 2% advantage = expectation of $4
with Halves you bet $220 with a 2.2% advantage = expectation of $4.84
Is the above approx 17.35%? and this is for a non resizing bank.
With just kelly flat betting the difference swells from 10% to approx 20%
(17.35%). Now if one resizes their bets based on wins and losses the difference above grows larger over time. Think compound interest.
So in reality what happens is:
With the higher level count you bet more at higher advantages.
With resizing that difference compounds.
Probably most players have resized their bank with wins and losses.
If one can count hi lo and halves in under 30s, which one should they use?
good cards
:joker::whip:
I still say 2.0% to 2.2% is misleading vs stating a 10% improvement, though they are the same thing. We can disagree. However, I will say this is one reason SCORE became popular because it's easier to see differences in $, which I also pointed out.
The 10% improvement is very misleading because it assumes one is betting the same thing with both counts. It has one underbetting the superior count.
With a 10g kelly flat betting bank (not considering variance):
With hi lo you bet $200 with a 2% advantage = expectation of $4
with Halves you bet $220 with a 2.2% advantage = expectation of $4.84
Is the above approx 17.35%? and this is for a non resizing bank.
With just kelly flat betting the difference swells from 10% to approx 20%
(17.35%). Now if one resizes their bets based on wins and losses the difference above grows larger over time. Think compound interest.
So in reality what happens is:
With the higher level count you bet more at higher advantages.
With resizing that difference compounds.
Probably most players have resized their bank with wins and losses.
If one can count hi lo and halves in under 30s, which one should they use?
good cards
:joker::whip: