Bad players make the game worse for an AP

[BJgenius007]

Players who do things like hit stiffs vs bust cards, split 10s, and hit hard 17 make the game worse for an AP.

Why?

They take up more cards, which takes time to deal the cards to them, takes time for the dealer to check to make sure they're sure, and causes less rounds to be dealt per shoe (so more shuffles per hand you see).

They also cause people to leave the table which means more time spent coloring up and buying in.

Most of the time, I don't mind playing at the table with ploppies. Most of them just randomly draw or stay so they cancel each other. There is only one type of ploppies I will avoid, the over-aggressive ones. They split every pair and hit every hand even against dealer shows bust card. In the DD game, it will dramatically change TC after he is done especially he splits 3 times and then keep drawing cards. Once I had a max bet and this ploppy split, draw, split, draw, draw, draw, then the next ploppy did the same. I was sitting at the third base and watched the TC tumble to -1 and I have no advantage when dealer drew his card.

 

[cardenorders]

One time there was a guy (the degenerate type who plays the entire shift) in a seat that was worth about 800 bucks to me.

How exactly do you determine the approximate value of a specific seat at a table? I am intrigued and confused. Please enlighten me.

 

[Sonny]

How exactly do you determine the approximate value of a specific seat at a table? I am intrigued and confused. Please enlighten me.

Some seats can be more valuable for certain advanced techniques. If you can't get the proper seat(s) or keep the proper seat(s) empty, you can't use the technique.

-Sonny-

 

[cardenorders]

Assuming holecarding is one of the techniques here, but how would you actually determine a specific value? Based on bet unit, etc. I guess. Any, it got me thinking, which is unusual before noon or so.

 

[Sonny]

...how would you actually determine a specific value? Based on bet unit, etc. I guess.

Exactly. You expect the technique to give you a certain advantage, so the value of the seat is the EV it generates, which is the advantage multiplied by your bet size. Along those lines, that same seat may have very different values for different players because of different advantages and different bet sizes.

-Sonny-

 

[Sucker]

Once I had a max bet and this ploppy split, draw, split, draw, draw, draw, then the next ploppy did the same. I was sitting at the third base and watched the TC tumble to -1 and I have no advantage when dealer drew his card.

Ploppies can take as many or as few cards as they like, and in the long run; it will not change the TC one iota. If ANYTHING, it HELPS you; due to the fact that the more depleted the deck, the more valuable each individual card becomes.

Blaming the ploppies for this is EXACTLY the same as blaming ploppies for "taking the bust card". In the grand scheme of things, it just doesn't matter.

 

[farmdoggy]

Players who do things like hit stiffs vs bust cards, split 10s, and hit hard 17 make the game worse for an AP.

Why?

They take up more cards, which takes time to deal the cards to them, takes time for the dealer to check to make sure they're sure, and causes less rounds to be dealt per shoe (so more shuffles per hand you see).

They also cause people to leave the table which means more time spent coloring up and buying in.

No, because they lose faster, they're gone faster, and you get the table to yourself sooner And in a negative count they can take all the cards they want... But if they split 10's in a high count I will hate them whether it was the correct strategy at that moment or not!

 

[Jack_Black]

The ev gets cut drastically each time a player is added to the table. Heads up, a counter can get about 360 hands/hr at a shoe game and about 240 at a pitch game. Each additional player cuts the rate down about 1/3 and hr ev gets cut about 1/3 as well. So would you rather play for $240/hr or $80/hr?

 

[zengrifter]

The ev gets cut drastically each time a player is added to the table. Heads up, a counter can get about 360 hands/hr at a shoe game and about 240 at a pitch game. Each additional player cuts the rate down about 1/3 and hr ev gets cut about 1/3 as well. So would you rather play for $240/hr or $80/hr?

That is way too general of an analysis. zg

 

[Sonny]

That is way too general of an analysis. zg

But it's a good start. Game speed can have a huge effect on your win rate. Even a few extra hands per hour can add up to a lot of money and a big percent of your win rate. Also, with other players eating up cards you will be playing more hands off the top.

So the way that ploppies play isn't as much a factor as the fact that they are there in the first place. Then again, if they weren't there, we would all be out of a job.

-Sonny-

 

[zengrifter]

But it's a good start. Game speed can have a huge effect on your win rate. Even a few extra hands per hour can add up to a lot of money and a big percent of your win rate.

As he stated it, was too one-dimensional - 1/3rd reduction per additional other.
Adjusting for (a few) more players calls for multiple large-count bets and allows for fewer small-count bets. And, typically such linear thinking comes from counters who may be apt to routinely spread to dual large-count bets even when there is only one other player.

Notwithstanding, of course there are fewer hands/hr and less pene with more peeps. zg

 

[blackjacktilt]

The never ending arguement.....

Two words, LONG TERM.

 

[Jack_Black]

That is way too general of an analysis. zg

oh jeez, I said ABOUT.

of course, some dealers are faster than others, but I did take notes one night at my stores and here's what I got:

DD Pitch game H17 no das HO2 ASC
heads up, 5 hands/min. $195.19/hr
add one player, 3hands/min. $117.11/hr
add 2 players, 1 hand/45sec. $52.05/hr

I even let the dealers be aware that they were being timed, and they made a competition out of it.

 

[zengrifter]

DD Pitch game H17 no das HO2 ASC
heads up, 5 hands/min. $195.19/hr
add one player, 3hands/min. $117.11/hr
add 2 players, 1 hand/45sec. $52.05/hr

Got it. Where did these #s derive? BJA? zg

 

[Jack_Black]

Got it. Where did these #s derive? BJA? zg

CVData/CVCX. They both have options to set hands/hr.

 

[zengrifter]

CVData/CVCX. They both have options to set hands/hr.

So then the numbers are reflective of not adapting to the relative congestion,
extra big-count bets, which is elementary. Right? zg

 

[Jack_Black]

So then the numbers are reflective of not adapting to the relative congestion,
extra big-count bets, which is elementary. Right? zg

It doesn't help really. my sims WERE for playing 2 hands. and although wonging helps tremendously with SCORE, ROR, etc. it destroys EV.

 

[zengrifter]

It doesn't help really. my sims WERE for playing 2 hands.

Something is off ... other than my own understanding, of course.

and although wonging helps tremendously with SCORE, ROR, etc. it destroys EV.

Say WHAT!? Come again? z:laugh:g

 

[Jack_Black]

let me rephrase that. example: if you were playing table max of $2000 play all vs $2000 wonging, it will destroy your EV. but the point of wonging is to reduce your ROR so that you can bet bigger, IF table conditions allow it. but for covers sake, lets say you could play max $500 and no one will freak out about it, then play all vs wonging would be better for EV.

 

[zengrifter]

let me rephrase that: if you were playing table max of $2000 play all vs $2000 wonging, it will destroy your EV.

Au contrair, mon ami. In your example the wonging HOURLY EV will markedly
improve. I think I know the source of your confusion. Anyone else? zg