beating RFID legal?
- Thread starter Garo
- Start date
ONLY on the CASINO's Side......
A Player (AP or Ploppy) using ANY artificial signalling device, so as to gain an advantage, shall be, when caught, a FELON in NV and most other jurisdictions.
Quoting Malmuth and I. Nelson Rose, any Player using their own brain, is exposed to HEAT, and usually EXPULSION as well.
Certainly, with "Mind-Play", Casino's are now allowed to "ALTER THE RANDOMNESS OF THE OUTCOME!".
Maybe a "typo", but you equated RFID with RFB (Room, Food, & Beverage)!
ANYHOW, IMHO, if it is legal/allowed to use COMPUTERs to Rate/Evaluate Players, then said Players should have the same right to use same COMPUTERs to Play against SAME!
pH.007.
A Player (AP or Ploppy) using ANY artificial signalling device, so as to gain an advantage, shall be, when caught, a FELON in NV and most other jurisdictions.
Quoting Malmuth and I. Nelson Rose, any Player using their own brain, is exposed to HEAT, and usually EXPULSION as well.
Certainly, with "Mind-Play", Casino's are now allowed to "ALTER THE RANDOMNESS OF THE OUTCOME!".
Maybe a "typo", but you equated RFID with RFB (Room, Food, & Beverage)!
ANYHOW, IMHO, if it is legal/allowed to use COMPUTERs to Rate/Evaluate Players, then said Players should have the same right to use same COMPUTERs to Play against SAME!
pH.007.
I think
his point was that if someone could come up with an RFID "spoofing" device, you could convince the RFID scanner that you have $100 on the table when you only have $10. Hence the potential for getting RFB comps because of a higher "scanned" average bet. The problem I would see is that you could make it look like the entire table is a "high-roller" table when the actual betting level is nickles.
Might draw scrutiny. How to just "spoof" when it is reading your particular bet would be quite a problem to solve...
his point was that if someone could come up with an RFID "spoofing" device, you could convince the RFID scanner that you have $100 on the table when you only have $10. Hence the potential for getting RFB comps because of a higher "scanned" average bet. The problem I would see is that you could make it look like the entire table is a "high-roller" table when the actual betting level is nickles.
Might draw scrutiny. How to just "spoof" when it is reading your particular bet would be quite a problem to solve...
Dude, that's F'd up!
> A Player (AP or Ploppy) using ANY artificial signalling device, so as to gain
> an advantage, shall be, when caught, a FELON in NV and most other
> jurisdictions.
I thought that only devices that calculated the odds, or similar advantageous opporunities, were illegal. Are "artificial signalling" devices illegal if a card counter using his brain uses them to "page" a BP? The device itself is not doing anything illegal, it is merely signaling another person in the casino. Certainly it would be a difficult thing to explain to law enforcement, but the device, in and of itself, would not be illegal, right?
I suppose that a HERF gun would be illegal though, huh? Dang. I guess it wouldn't fit in my shoes anyway. =(
-Sonny-
> A Player (AP or Ploppy) using ANY artificial signalling device, so as to gain
> an advantage, shall be, when caught, a FELON in NV and most other
> jurisdictions.
I thought that only devices that calculated the odds, or similar advantageous opporunities, were illegal. Are "artificial signalling" devices illegal if a card counter using his brain uses them to "page" a BP? The device itself is not doing anything illegal, it is merely signaling another person in the casino. Certainly it would be a difficult thing to explain to law enforcement, but the device, in and of itself, would not be illegal, right?
I suppose that a HERF gun would be illegal though, huh? Dang. I guess it wouldn't fit in my shoes anyway. =(
-Sonny-
I would hope
you are right. I've certainly sat at many a BJ table with my cell phone on my belt. I think the ban affects those devices that can influence or predict the outcome of any game. That is, no whopper magnets under the craps table, no wheel-clocking device for the roulette table, no card-tracking computer in your shoe to predict the next card dealt, etc. Hell, my cell phone can't even predict the next time I will get a telephone call.
you are right. I've certainly sat at many a BJ table with my cell phone on my belt.
I think the ban affects those devices that can influence or predict the outcome of any game. That is, no whopper magnets under the craps table, no wheel-clocking device for the roulette table, no card-tracking computer in your shoe to predict the next card dealt, etc. Hell, my cell phone can't even predict the next time I will get a telephone call. I should add
The casinos have opened the door to electronic mischief. If someone comes up with a workable spoofing device, the casinos deserve whatever they get. A keychain FOB that would "spoof" on demand would be nice (not always on, or you'd get discovered with a good RF spectrum analyzer and a directional antenna).
The casinos have opened the door to electronic mischief. If someone comes up with a workable spoofing device, the casinos deserve whatever they get. A keychain FOB that would "spoof" on demand would be nice (not always on, or you'd get discovered with a good RF spectrum analyzer and a directional antenna).
RFID Chips
I think you are referring to RFID chips, where the chip is giving off a signal that is picked up by an antenna in the casino. In this case, it would be nice to either fry out the microprocessor in certain chips or alter the microprocessor so that it gave off the signal of a different denomination chip. To the extent that a casino was using the RFID system to monitor bet spreads, they would be effectively blinded.
In this case, the casino is using a computerized device to alter the conditions of a table game (illegal IMHO, but OK per NGC). I don't believe that it is illegal for a player to alter a device that the casino illegally uses. I also think that the casino may press charges anyway. Given the corrupt legal system in Nevada, you could be convicted for something like this.
I think you are referring to RFID chips, where the chip is giving off a signal that is picked up by an antenna in the casino. In this case, it would be nice to either fry out the microprocessor in certain chips or alter the microprocessor so that it gave off the signal of a different denomination chip. To the extent that a casino was using the RFID system to monitor bet spreads, they would be effectively blinded.
In this case, the casino is using a computerized device to alter the conditions of a table game (illegal IMHO, but OK per NGC). I don't believe that it is illegal for a player to alter a device that the casino illegally uses. I also think that the casino may press charges anyway. Given the corrupt legal system in Nevada, you could be convicted for something like this.
RFID
is a passive device. It doesn't produce radio waves, it doesn't really do anything except resonate and re-broadcast a signal that matches its tuning...
To read a RFID chip, the casino broadcasts a specific frequency and then sees what it gets back. It is possible to carry an active device that could play hell with this, like the radar scramblers you can buy for your car that take the police radar signal, then doppler-shift (frequency-shift) the signal multiple ways to make the receiver go ape-snot and be unable to lock on and get a single doppler-shift reading to compute your speed.
I hope someone studies this in detail, as RFID needs to go at the gaming table.
is a passive device. It doesn't produce radio waves, it doesn't really do anything except resonate and re-broadcast a signal that matches its tuning...
To read a RFID chip, the casino broadcasts a specific frequency and then sees what it gets back. It is possible to carry an active device that could play hell with this, like the radar scramblers you can buy for your car that take the police radar signal, then doppler-shift (frequency-shift) the signal multiple ways to make the receiver go ape-snot and be unable to lock on and get a single doppler-shift reading to compute your speed.
I hope someone studies this in detail, as RFID needs to go at the gaming table.
FIRST, to CougFan.......
Just like LTC a few days ago, GREAT to see you posting again! I think, the last time I saw your post, you were quitting BJ, and trying to sell you Gambling books. Maybe my Memory is flawed, but whatever, if you still have "Beyond Counting", would gladly pay $25. + S/H! GRIN!
Otherwise, I may have misread the original post to which I responded to. WHAT ELSE IS NEW! I personally feel that Player's using anything other than their Brain and Common Knowlege, i.e., "Devices", should be FELONS....as should the stores using SAME against mostly Hapless Ploppies!
AP's either BET DOWN or WONG-OUT in Negative Decks/Counts....the Ploppies, most having read a "book-or-two", PLAY-ON, knowing that from time-to-time, the DECK(s) will turn in their FAVOUR! With MIND-PLAY, they will NEVER achieve their expected RANDOMNESS, and MOST will not know the difference!
Per I. Nelson Rose, "Devices" can include "BS CARDS", and in some cases, stores that sell SAME in their own Gift Shop, will sometimes PROHIBIT use of SAME at their tables! Go figure?!
Anyhow, I have read a few posts suggesting that, in stores that use "Metal and/or "Metallic" coins for their $1. Chips, that placing 1 on top of your "Trackable" chips, just screws up their system. Just reporting what I have read....BUT IF TRUE?.....
Phantom007.
Just like LTC a few days ago, GREAT to see you posting again! I think, the last time I saw your post, you were quitting BJ, and trying to sell you Gambling books. Maybe my Memory is flawed, but whatever, if you still have "Beyond Counting", would gladly pay $25. + S/H! GRIN!
Otherwise, I may have misread the original post to which I responded to. WHAT ELSE IS NEW! I personally feel that Player's using anything other than their Brain and Common Knowlege, i.e., "Devices", should be FELONS....as should the stores using SAME against mostly Hapless Ploppies!
AP's either BET DOWN or WONG-OUT in Negative Decks/Counts....the Ploppies, most having read a "book-or-two", PLAY-ON, knowing that from time-to-time, the DECK(s) will turn in their FAVOUR! With MIND-PLAY, they will NEVER achieve their expected RANDOMNESS, and MOST will not know the difference!
Per I. Nelson Rose, "Devices" can include "BS CARDS", and in some cases, stores that sell SAME in their own Gift Shop, will sometimes PROHIBIT use of SAME at their tables! Go figure?!
Anyhow, I have read a few posts suggesting that, in stores that use "Metal and/or "Metallic" coins for their $1. Chips, that placing 1 on top of your "Trackable" chips, just screws up their system. Just reporting what I have read....BUT IF TRUE?.....
Phantom007.
That actually sounds plausible
Wonder if it would piss 'em off if my $40 bet is a red and a silver repeated 7 times (42 bucks total, but oh well). I can't imagine that scanning would be very effective there, but I'm not sure.
Next thought is to jam things. I'd bet they are using the low frequency versions, which would be highly jammable without spending a lot of money...
Wonder if it would piss 'em off if my $40 bet is a red and a silver repeated 7 times (42 bucks total, but oh well). I can't imagine that scanning would be very effective there, but I'm not sure.
Next thought is to jam things. I'd bet they are using the low frequency versions, which would be highly jammable without spending a lot of money...
I agree with low freq
Low freq would make more sense, they aren't trying to send a signal more than a hundred yards, and they aren't sending much data so low freq would be the most efficient idea, but without knowing the specific frequencies that doesn't help us much. If they use a passive scan it would not be possible to figure it out; either on the casino floor or by taking a chip apart, you would need some inside information. I might not be right on all this, I am mostly a software guy. Jamming would be easier, and possibly very easy. This would not give the user a financial benefit, but would prevent the casinos from tracking bets, what do you think about the legality of a jammer? How about the legality of it if you kept it off the casino floor, possibly in the hotel or something?
Low freq would make more sense, they aren't trying to send a signal more than a hundred yards, and they aren't sending much data so low freq would be the most efficient idea, but without knowing the specific frequencies that doesn't help us much. If they use a passive scan it would not be possible to figure it out; either on the casino floor or by taking a chip apart, you would need some inside information. I might not be right on all this, I am mostly a software guy. Jamming would be easier, and possibly very easy. This would not give the user a financial benefit, but would prevent the casinos from tracking bets, what do you think about the legality of a jammer? How about the legality of it if you kept it off the casino floor, possibly in the hotel or something?
I don't believe
passive scan will work on chips. Chips are going to have to have passive RFID in them, because batteries are not going to work for obvious reasons. This means that there are going to be antennas under the table (probably under each betting circle) that will actively produce RF that causes the chips to sympathetically respond.
I read a paper somewhere a few months back about security in this stuff, and it looks ugly. There are two directions of data going on, one to the chip, one back. Turns out that if you just monitor the stuff going _to_ the chip, you can decode all but the last bit (binary digit) of data stored in the chip. And this is the strong signal coming from the casino's transmitter. You could certainly detect this with something in your pocket, and have your pocket device "spoof" the expected response and overwhelm the receiver's ability to differentiate between the real chip and your spoofer.
You ought to be able to earn a small fortune in comps if this is done right. And you are not breaking a gambling law by using a device since it has nothing to do with the outcome of the game. Fraud might come into play of course, but if you use an accomplice that does the spoofing, it would be harder to catch the "operator".
Not that I'd recommend doing this of course. We would not want to break the law. Just the casino.
passive scan will work on chips. Chips are going to have to have passive RFID in them, because batteries are not going to work for obvious reasons. This means that there are going to be antennas under the table (probably under each betting circle) that will actively produce RF that causes the chips to sympathetically respond.
I read a paper somewhere a few months back about security in this stuff, and it looks ugly. There are two directions of data going on, one to the chip, one back. Turns out that if you just monitor the stuff going _to_ the chip, you can decode all but the last bit (binary digit) of data stored in the chip. And this is the strong signal coming from the casino's transmitter. You could certainly detect this with something in your pocket, and have your pocket device "spoof" the expected response and overwhelm the receiver's ability to differentiate between the real chip and your spoofer.
You ought to be able to earn a small fortune in comps if this is done right.
And you are not breaking a gambling law by using a device since it has nothing to do with the outcome of the game. Fraud might come into play of course, but if you use an accomplice that does the spoofing, it would be harder to catch the "operator".Not that I'd recommend doing this of course. We would not want to break the law. Just the casino.
Good ideas
Active jamming of RFID will create a legal problem with the FCC, and those guys are known for levying massive fines. But having a passive device and using it for comp hustling is the way to go, I think. I would just put a couple of blacks in a pack of cigarettes and put it on the table in my betting circle. My understanding of the RFID is that it is going to be used to track employee theft and cheques walking in and out of the casino, not betting patterns, not sure if the transcevers have enough spatial resolution to do that.
Mu-metal is a material with enormous magnetic permeability that is available as a foil and a pouch made of this foil will shield RFID tagged chips from being read.
(Dead link: http://www.goodfellow.com/csp/active/static/A/NI03.HTML)
Active jamming of RFID will create a legal problem with the FCC, and those guys are known for levying massive fines. But having a passive device and using it for comp hustling is the way to go, I think. I would just put a couple of blacks in a pack of cigarettes and put it on the table in my betting circle. My understanding of the RFID is that it is going to be used to track employee theft and cheques walking in and out of the casino, not betting patterns, not sure if the transcevers have enough spatial resolution to do that.
Mu-metal is a material with enormous magnetic permeability that is available as a foil and a pouch made of this foil will shield RFID tagged chips from being read.
(Dead link: http://www.goodfellow.com/csp/active/static/A/NI03.HTML)
now there's an idea.
A couple of "black chips" for cufflinks. Average bet becomes 200 + whatever you are playing. I'm not sure how they would handle the fact that you would always have the same two black chips on the table with the same RFID signature, but who cares until we try it. This I might test on my upcoming vegas trip in fact...
A couple of "black chips" for cufflinks.
Average bet becomes 200 + whatever you are playing. I'm not sure how they would handle the fact that you would always have the same two black chips on the table with the same RFID signature, but who cares until we try it. This I might test on my upcoming vegas trip in fact...Some questions...
Interesting thread which spawned some questions...
1) How does the table reader distinguish between chips in the betting circle vs. chips outside the betting circle?
2) Do you think the table reader will only read chips placed above it (on the table)?
3) Roughly how far from the player edge of the table is the center point of a table's betting square?
Interesting thread which spawned some questions...
1) How does the table reader distinguish between chips in the betting circle vs. chips outside the betting circle?
2) Do you think the table reader will only read chips placed above it (on the table)?
3) Roughly how far from the player edge of the table is the center point of a table's betting square?
an answer or two
It seems that the "scanner" locates an antenna under each betting circle. And that each of these is very sensitive, very low-power. A friend got a cooperative dealer to let him place a chip close to the betting circle, but not in it, to see if the thing would pick it up. The dealer hit the "scan" button, and all the thing scanned was the chips inside the circle.
So it seems that putting something "close but not in" won't work. Whether a "black chip" cufflink would work or not is therefore open to testing.
But spoofing is still an issue. An electronic device can certainly detect the scanner RF emissions outside the betting circle, and it could certainly respond with a power level high enough that the antenna under the circle would be able to detect it, all that is left is to figure out what to respond with, since the chips have both a value and an ID (I'd almost guess that the value is looked up after the ID is scanned, it would make more sense). That means that the "spoofer" has to be pretty clever and respond with a valid RFID response.
What's probably going to happen is that in 5 years, we will see a new law passed making it illegal to have any RF-generating equipment inside a casino. Then we'll hear about the casey/thor-like devices someone produced to take the casinos for millions once again.
It seems that the "scanner" locates an antenna under each betting circle. And that each of these is very sensitive, very low-power. A friend got a cooperative dealer to let him place a chip close to the betting circle, but not in it, to see if the thing would pick it up. The dealer hit the "scan" button, and all the thing scanned was the chips inside the circle.
So it seems that putting something "close but not in" won't work. Whether a "black chip" cufflink would work or not is therefore open to testing.
But spoofing is still an issue. An electronic device can certainly detect the scanner RF emissions outside the betting circle, and it could certainly respond with a power level high enough that the antenna under the circle would be able to detect it, all that is left is to figure out what to respond with, since the chips have both a value and an ID (I'd almost guess that the value is looked up after the ID is scanned, it would make more sense). That means that the "spoofer" has to be pretty clever and respond with a valid RFID response.
What's probably going to happen is that in 5 years, we will see a new law passed making it illegal to have any RF-generating equipment inside a casino. Then we'll hear about the casey/thor-like devices someone produced to take the casinos for millions once again.
More thought
But spoofing is still an issue. An electronic device can certainly detect the scanner RF emissions outside the betting circle, and it could certainly respond with a power level high enough that the antenna under the circle would be able to detect it, all that is left is to figure out what to respond with, since the chips have both a value and an ID (I'd almost guess that the value is looked up after the ID is scanned, it would make more sense). That means that the "spoofer" has to be pretty clever and respond with a valid RFID response.
One issue is making sure the antennea only in *your* betting circle picks up the signal. It would seem quite strange to the house if more scanned, individual bets were placed than actual bets on the table. Would be interesting to know how the tables are built, wired and shielded.
From my prior questions, I hope some of you were able to determine the direction I was heading. Think z-axis.
toddler
But spoofing is still an issue. An electronic device can certainly detect the scanner RF emissions outside the betting circle, and it could certainly respond with a power level high enough that the antenna under the circle would be able to detect it, all that is left is to figure out what to respond with, since the chips have both a value and an ID (I'd almost guess that the value is looked up after the ID is scanned, it would make more sense). That means that the "spoofer" has to be pretty clever and respond with a valid RFID response.
One issue is making sure the antennea only in *your* betting circle picks up the signal. It would seem quite strange to the house if more scanned, individual bets were placed than actual bets on the table. Would be interesting to know how the tables are built, wired and shielded.
From my prior questions, I hope some of you were able to determine the direction I was heading. Think z-axis.
toddler
not quite
note that this is not a "continuous scan". You place the bets, the dealer hits a "read bets" button, and the bets get logged. Of course, if things went to a continuous scan, just keep your arm close enough, however close that is...
a continuous scan would cause another problem, as it would appear that you are removing chips, probably due to a losing hand, and the pit would be notified and watch to see what's going on.
note that this is not a "continuous scan". You place the bets, the dealer hits a "read bets" button, and the bets get logged. Of course, if things went to a continuous scan, just keep your arm close enough, however close that is...
a continuous scan would cause another problem, as it would appear that you are removing chips, probably due to a losing hand, and the pit would be notified and watch to see what's going on.
Thanks Phantom
I appreciate the notice of my absence, but I think you have me confused a bit. I have not been playing much due to work and family responsibilities. I have cut back posting unless I really have something of value to add (which is not very often).
However, I have never even thought of selling my books. I also don't own Beyond Counting, although I did read a friend's copy that he was nice enough to loan me.
I appreciate the notice of my absence, but I think you have me confused a bit. I have not been playing much due to work and family responsibilities. I have cut back posting unless I really have something of value to add (which is not very often).
However, I have never even thought of selling my books. I also don't own Beyond Counting, although I did read a friend's copy that he was nice enough to loan me.