Best Strategy for this game?

[WRBJ]

Hey guys,

For the last 2 months i have been hitting up the casino pretty hard. For a year before that i had been practicing the Hi-Lo strategy, and finally started to play.

Now that it has come down to it, i found that experience is still the best way to learn how to play the game.

I have lost over 300$, but i started out with 50$. My biggest win so far has been 900$, but that is besides the point.

What i want to know is what the best stratgey for thsi game is. The casino is a reservation owned casino and has many good qualities about it, though the rules are kinda sketchy. Here is the list of rules:

• 2 Deck
• No double after split
• Double only 10,11
• Split up to 4 times
• Dealer hits on a soft 17
• Penetration is 66% for 6 players, and it drops lower for less. (the casino dealers often go past the penetration rate when there is only 2 or less people, and once we ran out of cards mid play.)
• Blackjack pays 3 to 2
• Split on Aces is dealt only one card
• When the dealer has Ace showing, insurance is asked for. If you get blackjack, you can choose to take insurance, take even money, or let it go. If no BJ then you get full BJ pay, but if there is a BJ the dealer pushes.
• Blackjack beats dealer 3 card or more 21

So yeah, i think i covered it all. Maybe not, but if you need more info i can add it.

What i want to know though is what strategy is best for this. I looked up on QFIT (i think thats the name) and it said the top 3 choices where:

• 100 Canfield Master
• 99 Omega II with Side Count
• 96 Uston APC

And Hi-Lo was at the bottom of the list, second to last only to Red Sevens.

So all of my hard work, according to this site, was useless. I can count a full deck at 20 seconds, but the other strategys with +2 or even +3 counts still hurt me since im not used to them.

So without just playing basic strategy and hoping for the best, what would be the best Card Counting system according to you guys?

Also, what would be a good bet spread? There are 3 tables all the time, that never change. There is a 5, 10, and 25 table, with max bets from 200 to 500. So what would be a good betting strategy?

Thanks guys in advance.

 

[zengrifter]

NONE of those systems you cite are ideal - in fact they are ALL OBSOLETE.

That said, the game you describe is junk - poor rules/pene.

HiLo is fine here, but you will need a very agressive spread - 1-20+ with LOTS of exiting. zg

 

[WRBJ]

I would go somewhere else, but i dont have any where else to go to. Cant afford to roll out to any other big time casino. Its all i got.

So, 1-20? Sounds good, i can try that. Exiting will be harder to do, but then again if it pays off what does it matter.

Thanks.

 

[EasyRhino]

The rules are quite poor. Actually, they're terrible, equivalent to a restrictive Reno single deck game (but not single deck!). 0.75% house advantage. the only reason I'd recommend it is if the penetration was truly excellent.

Worth checking if there are any shoe games with better rules or penetration.

[*]Penetration is 66% for 6 players, and it drops lower for less. (the casino dealers often go past the penetration rate when there is only 2 or less people, and once we ran out of cards mid play.)

This is confusing. First, do they use a cut card? If they do, that's what you want to pay attention to. A full table is going to consume more cards in the last round, but what matters is how far you get before the round starts.

Second, by 66% do you mean that 2/3 of the cards are consumed before shuffle/cut card?

When you say pen drops with fewer players, you mean it gets worse? How?

The fact that you ran out of cards is promising. It sounds like maybe some dealers are better than others from your perspective. You should carefully look to determine which dealers are the "good" ones, and do whatever you can to subtly cultivate better penetration.

Doing a huge spread on the game may get you backed off. But the rules are so bad, it wouldn't be a loss.

 

[WRBJ]

What i meant by the penetration is that they take the cut card and they put it 66% into the 2 decks. Sot hat we play on the 66%, and 33% is taken out.

Now, the good dealers do let the players play past the cut card when there is 2 or less people... but that is almost never happening anymore. The place is getting too busy.

But sometimes they still let us, it is just luck of the table. And i have only seen 2 of the like 30 that they use do that.

So everyone agrees, a good bet spread is key? Even if i get kicked out?

The only problem is that it is the only casino my way, so i don't want to cause too much heat, atleast not until i can dominate another casino somewhere else.

 

[WRBJ]

Just sent my friend out to the casino to ask the dealers (my friend is buddys with most of them) how many they have kicked out due to card counting. They said "None, this is a family run casino. The thing is that when someone wins big, there is alot of other people who combined loose up to 10x more. So we dont really mind. Its when there is alot of people coming in, and winning a bunch, that we will get worried. But we will never kick anyone out, perhaps just shut down the blackjack tables.".

So as long as i just keep it to myself, i shouldnt have a problem. Unless they were lieng to him.. but i dont see them being very serious people anyway.

So, that being said, the best thing so far is to use the Hi-Lo at a 1-20 betting strategy?

And that is 1-20, 20x the amount of your first unit, bet on a +4 or higher count, right? Just clarifying.

 

[Kasi]

So, that being said, the best thing so far is to use the Hi-Lo at a 1-20 betting strategy?

And that is 1-20, 20x the amount of your first unit, bet on a +4 or higher count, right? .

What roll will you be betting to? What's table min?

Can you just sit there and play the hands you want?

Can u handle the variance of a 20-1 spread?

Pretty terrible game, especially if you play all hands.

 

[WRBJ]

The table min varys. One table has 5, another has 10, and the last has 25 mins.

I can handle 1-20, money is not a real problem, i just want to be able to figure out this game for my benifit so that when i move out of this town i will have some good experience with card counting.

So, a 1-20 on a 5 min table would be 100 bucks max bet, and i can handle that.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

What i meant by the penetration is that they take the cut card and they put it 66% into the 2 decks. Sot hat we play on the 66%, and 33% is taken out.

Now, the good dealers do let the players play past the cut card when there is 2 or less people... but that is almost never happening anymore. The place is getting too busy.

But sometimes they still let us, it is just luck of the table. And i have only seen 2 of the like 30 that they use do that.

So everyone agrees, a good bet spread is key? Even if i get kicked out?

The only problem is that it is the only casino my way, so i don't want to cause too much heat, atleast not until i can dominate another casino somewhere else.

With 66% or greater pen it's a playable game.

High-Low will work, but you might want to consider a stronger count if you want to extract maximum profit with a smaller spread. Consider Zen or Unbalanced Zen.

 

[Kasi]

The table min varys. One table has 5, another has 10, and the last has 25 mins.

I can handle 1-20, money is not a real problem, i just want to be able to figure out this game for my benifit so that when i move out of this town i will have some good experience with card counting.

So, a 1-20 on a 5 min table would be 100 bucks max bet, and i can handle that.

That's cool.

Maybe I'll run a powersim sim at 66 cards playing alone and all hands assuming Hi-Lo with indexes to give you an idea.

5 or 8 cards of pen one way or the other could likely change your unit size.

Didn't understand BJ beating a dealer 3-card 21?

 

[WRBJ]

Oh thank you Kasi, that would be really cool.

And yeah, i understand that. Just the thing is, 1-20 is 20 x the min bet at +4 (TC of +2), right?


EDIT: Oh, and thanks for recommending the Zen count. Do you think it would be better then the Hi-Lo will full indicies?

 

[FLASH1296]

Advice

With the dealer giving good 66% penetration this game which is NOT a good game, as the House Advantage is about .40
is playable, but only marginally so. Sounds like Northern Nevada.

Hi-Lo and ALL Level One counts that fail to Side Count Aces are very poor choices for this game.
The ability to depart from Basic Strategy with Hi-Lo, etc is poor,
as is their ability to ferret out profitable Insurance decisions.

The best counts to use for Double Deck games are:

1. Hi-Opt II with Side Counted Aces
2. Omega II with Side Counted Aces
3. ZEN

. . . in that order. The first two have equivalent power.
The third requires no side counts and is good for all games, shoes included.
I used ZEN from 1981 to 2001 and was pleased with it. I still use it for shoe games.

You can read "Blackjack for Blood" to learn the Advanced Omega II
If you are not completely comfortable with Side-Counted Aces and the additional betting and playing adjustments they require -- study the ZEN Count that you will find in "Blackbelt in Blackjack"

Spend a few days reading them both and then make up your mind.

Here are links to purchase these two great books on the cheap.

Get the 2000 ed. for $9: "Blackjack for Blood"

http://product.half.ebay.com/Blackjack-for-Blood-The-Card-Counters-Bible-and-Complete-Winning-Guide-by-Bryce-Carlson-2000-Paperback/1799022&cpid=1055805498

Get the 2005 ed. for $8: "Blackbelt in Blackjack"

http://search.half.ebay.com/blackbelt-in-blackjack_W0QQmZbooks

 

[WRBJ]

Ah, thank you. I will definatly look into both of them. The ones that i have practiced before are the Uston APC and the Canfield, and of coruse Hi-lo, but they have done nothing.

I will move onto the Hi-Opt II w/ side count aces, and see how it works.

Are there any books that cover that? Or maybe a link that will teach me some?

I can get the card values easy enough, but i will see about searching for the indicies and such.

Thanks again.

 

[Kasi]

Just the thing is, 1-20 is 20 x the min bet at +4 (TC of +2), right?

Well this sim is assuming Hi-Lo not Zen. The sim will figure out at what counts to bet how much in an optimal way. That's what sims do. I believe the sim floors TC's but not entirely sure.

Like I didn't really understand that diff pen levels with different number of people stuff either. Then it's a different game perhaps and time to run another sim giving those assumptions lol.

Powersim might be able to handle Zen but I doubt it.

Another reason to buy the best sim if you are serious.

While I'm glad money is no real problem lol, but how much are you willing to risk that you might lose it all? And how much chance to you want to take of losing it all 1 in 5, 1 in 10 1 in 20?

No doubt your best bet would be to back-count if that's possible.

 

[WRBJ]

Yeah, backcounting is definatly possible. I have a small team, of me and a friend, and possibly a third joining in december once he hits 18 years old. And i have back counted before, but have always gone in and lost anyway so decided not to. Witht he Zen Count though, i will start again.

So, lets say i am serious to buy that good simulator, where could i get it?

And well, i will give you an example of the dealer really fast:

Lets say that the dealer puts the cut card 66% into the deck, so that we play on that 66%. With 3 or more people at the tables, we play until the end of the decks and start over once we hit the 66% mark.

Like most places, im sure.

But if there is myself and maybe one other person with a good dealer and that is it at the tables, the dealer might go past the penetration mark so that we can have a few more hands before the shuffle. But that is only when the dealer knows that we wont run out of cards while we are playing those last hands.

 

[Kasi]

Yeah, backcounting is definatly possible. I have a small team, of me and a friend,
So, lets say i am serious to buy that good simulator, where could i get it?
.

The sim came up with bet $5 thru +1 and then $30,$50,$65,$90,$100 at TC+2,3,4,5,6.

SCORE of 40. EV $0.21 per round and SD $33.32/round. A 2000 unit roll will be a ROR of 2%. 1500 units about 5%. 1000 units about 15%. Avg bet $16.

Whether you can get away with a 1-20 spread at double-deck is another story lol.

The sim is at http://www.qfit.com - not sure if CVDATA or CVCX, if you can only buy 1, would be better. I'm guessing CVCX though.

If you have a team all the more reason to get it. Then you can measure results frequently and accurately and won't have to cry about your bad luck 25 hours later lol.

Back-counting would be even better - you could even use a small 1-2 spread that might be decent. But it wouldn't be $5-$10. A sim can tell you what it will be to keep the risk the same as what you want to play at no matter what game it is or how you play it.

While other counts might perform better, I'd stick with what you know and not worry that much about it.

After you get the sim software, go ahead and run results for same game with same spread using diff counting systems if you want and see how much better they perform and whether it's worth it.

Who knows maybe you'll be making $0.23/round then lol.

 

[Kasi]

With the dealer giving good 66% penetration this game which is NOT a good game, as the House Advantage is about .40

Guess it's also about 1.10. They'd both be about equally close.

Hi-Lo and ALL Level One counts that fail to Side Count Aces are very poor choices for this game.

And by "very poor" I take it you probably mean they perform at about 10% to 90% of the other counts.

Is that about right?

 

[FLASH1296]

Kasi, you said "Whether you can get away with a 1-20 spread at double-deck is another story"

That is screamingly funny, like British understatement.

At 20-1 our newbie's career as a Card Counter will be short-lived indeed.

For most casinos I make the Over/Under at most 2 hrs. of Double Deck Play before he is tapped on the shoulder.

If he drops his spread to 10-1 he may last a bit longer.

The Pro Consensus is that 8-1 is stretching it, but is O.K. at low stakes;
but with chunky Green Chip play (or better) 6-1 will still be risky.

You commented: "And by "very poor" I take it you probably mean they perform at about 10% to 90% of the other counts."

I love your sense of humor.
What a hoot !
"10% to 90%"

 

[Kasi]

Kasi, you said "Whether you can get away with a 1-20 spread at double-deck is another story"

That is screamingly funny, like British understatement.

At 20-1 our newbie's career as a Card Counter will be short-lived indeed.

How come you didn't say that to zengrifter when he suggested it

So how much better do you think those counts will perform? "About" anyway.

PS The HA is like Easy Rhino said. No matter how bold and big you print otherwise.

 

[FLASH1296]

How come you didn't say that to zengrifter when he suggested it .

ZenGrifter was being facetious, trying to make a point via deliberate hyperbole.

So how much better do you think those counts will perform? "About" anyway.

It varies, but "about" 30%-35% better in a "pitch" game