Best system for a new player
- Thread starter mario18
- Start date
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
There's a good chance my answer will draw fire, but I don't care. 
Hi-lo. It is all you need as a new player. It is all you need later as you 'advance'. Should you learn some advanced techniques at some point, they are more compatible with hi-lo than other counts and if you decide to join a team or form a partnership at some point down the road, they most likely will be playing hi-lo, so you will be prepared.
Other's (maybe not on this site) will tell you differently, they will tell you the need for "so-called" higher level counts. They are wrong. They are out of touch with what matters in 2017. 20-30 years ago with better games and conditions, these so-called stronger counts were worth the extra effort. Those days are gone. Promoting those counts in 2017 is overkill.
I wouldn't advise someone already playing something else to change, but for someone starting out today, with the current conditions....it's a no brainer....Hi-lo.
Hi-lo. It is all you need as a new player. It is all you need later as you 'advance'. Should you learn some advanced techniques at some point, they are more compatible with hi-lo than other counts and if you decide to join a team or form a partnership at some point down the road, they most likely will be playing hi-lo, so you will be prepared.
Other's (maybe not on this site) will tell you differently, they will tell you the need for "so-called" higher level counts. They are wrong. They are out of touch with what matters in 2017. 20-30 years ago with better games and conditions, these so-called stronger counts were worth the extra effort. Those days are gone. Promoting those counts in 2017 is overkill.
I wouldn't advise someone already playing something else to change, but for someone starting out today, with the current conditions....it's a no brainer....Hi-lo.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
I would like to hear Don's reply. He usually avoids weighing in on these "discussions". I have heard Don asked "if you were starting out today, knowing everything you currently know, what count would you play?" That is basically the scenario here, the OP starting out today, so what count should he play Don? 
xengrifter
Banned
1. Start with HiLo,
2. get clear on proper bet sizing for your BR size,
3. and learn the alternate BS called count-weighted basic strategy (no indices required)
4. if you decide AFTER logging in some serious hours than add 40+ indices
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Can I ask where and why you came up with this number of index plays? I mean it is an opinion and you are entitled to it, I am just curious as to why 40? I myself play more than 18, I guess about 30, counting them up in my head. But the last dozen don't add much, especially any index plays dealing with negative counts. I find little value in an index that has me losing a couple cents less at certain negative counts. I think the better choice is to not be playing at least some, if not most of the significant negative counts.
Anyway, I would like to hear Don's opinion on number of index plays to learn as well. We all know that he knows and plays well over 100, but if he were starting out today......?
If it seems like I am baiting Don.....I most certainly AM. But not for any sinister reason. I heard Don answer this question (if you were starting out today....?), one time and it was/is a great answer. Because people value his opinion I would like to hear him repeat it a little more often.
Can I ask where and why you came up with this number of index plays? I mean it is an opinion and you are entitled to it, I am just curious as to why 40? I myself play more than 18, I guess about 30, counting them up in my head. But the last dozen don't add much, especially any index plays dealing with negative counts. I find little value in an index that has me losing a couple cents less at certain negative counts. I think the better choice is to not be playing at least some, if not most of the significant negative counts.
Anyway, I would like to hear Don's opinion on number of index plays to learn as well. We all know that he knows and plays well over 100, but if he were starting out today......?
If it seems like I am baiting Don.....I most certainly AM. But not for any sinister reason. I heard Don answer this question (if you were starting out today....?), one time and it was/is a great answer. Because people value his opinion I would like to hear him repeat it a little more often.
Sorry for the delay in seeing this. Sadly, my best friend of 64 years passed away on Thursday, and things have been a bit hectic ever since.
In any event, I agree with your assessment. Hi-Lo combines simplicity with power and is surely sufficient for a beginner. As most know, especially for the shoe game with a decent spread, the I18 (and perhaps four more for the Catch 22) and Fab 4 garner the great majority of the edge attainable -- about 85-90% -- so I don't think 40 indices are necessary for someone just starting out.
Don
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
First, my condolences on the passing of your dear friend.
You are a man that chooses his words very carefully, so I would like to elaborate on "surely sufficient for a beginner". One could read into that, that you would recommend something else at later stages. Is that the intent?
No, not necessarily. The discussion was about beginners, so I answered the question. I don't like threads that go off on tangents and start discussing things that weren't germane to the original focus. So, if you want to ask a new question, namely, do I think someone should stay with Hi-Lo/I18 forever, that's fine. And my answer would be, it depends on the someone! Once a player has mastered the above and plays it perfectly, he or she may or may not be motivated to try to win at a higher rate (around 10-15%), using higher level counts, side counts, more indices, or all of the above.
I don't advocate that; rather, I encourage people to understand what the potential is and to play at a level that suits their needs and their comfort level. For some, that never goes beyond Hi-Lo/I 18; for others, there is more. To me, it's all good.
Don
xengrifter
Banned
Just old chatter habit I suppose...
... 30 sounds good for 6D and I like 60+ for play-all pitch.
xengrifter
Banned
Likewise, a novice doesn't need the I-18 and Fab-4 (top-22 indices) when count-weighted BS will garner the same gain with a single index added for insurance. No?
.
.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
But, YOU don't even play hi-lo (or you didn't use to).
But since you weighed in, I usually say 'or another similar simple, level one count'. I didn't do that this time. I guess that was my bad. But one other thing that I didn't mention that is favorable to hi-lo (even over other similar level one counts) is that most of the information out there is written for hi-lo. Sort of written in the language of hi-lo. That makes it easier for a newer player who will likely be doing some research.
It's been a long time since I played something other than HiLo. How quickly you forget since we don't correspond like we used to...
I started with KO, then switched to HiLo several years later when I started playing Sp21, just so I could use the same tags for both games. FWIW, before switching to HiLo, I was true counting KO. I'm sure the posts about that are on this forum somewhere, probably in 2007 or so.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I actually don't remember that.
But you know what? Your reason for switching, just struck another favorable point for hi-lo. There are just so many favorable reasons for keep things simple and so many other thing, including several advanced plays that are more compatible with hi-lo.
I still have trouble understanding why there are "people", who want to make he game more difficult than it is. 
They're not really players. They are forum posters posing as players, with their 500% increase in EV and zero variance.
If they were really players, they'd see the advantages of simplicity. For example, being able to count multiple tables simultaneously, and jump from one to another when the time is right. Something like that REALLY increases EV.I'm sure there are some players who can do that with a more complex count. I find it very difficult. When I play DD, I side count aces for INS and a few other playing decisions. I've tried doing that and counting an adjacent table at the same time, and it's just too much for my feeble brain.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
They're not really players. They are forum posters posing as players, with their 500% increase in EV and zero variance.
I'm sure there are some players who can do that with a more complex count. I find it very difficult. When I play DD, I side count aces for INS and a few other playing decisions. I've tried doing that and counting an adjacent table at the same time, and it's just too much for my feeble brain.
I promised AL not to re-fight that war here, so I will comment no further on your first paragraph other than to say, I concur 100% with everything you said. As a matter of fact, if I didn't know better and just read that statement, I might think I had written it.
When tracking a second table, your count at the second table don't have to be perfect. I often miss cards, turn away for a second to play my hand, maybe someone steps in front blocking me for a second and I miss seeing a couple cards before the dealer sweeps them up. You can miss cards or you can be off slightly. All you really need is to be certain the count at the second table is a superior opportunity than the table you are playing.
A lot of people make fun of my tracking two tables and jumping directly to the better opportunity. But it dramatically increases EV. You are seeing and playing twice as many positive and max bet opportunities within the same number of rounds played.
Dealers hate it though.
You should hear some of the crap I come up with as a reason for jumping to the next table. If I lose a hand, I will say "you are too hot". Doesn't matter that I may have won the previous 4 hands. 
If the pit looks at me, I will say, "I am moving over here cause this dealer is killing me". The dealer looks at me, like WTF, you are ahead. 
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Don't want to get you in trouble, so we'll drop that part of it.
I find dealers are more perplexed than anything else when I table hop, especially after winning a few hands in a row. The pit people don't like table hoppers because it's more work for them tracking chip movement. It's also a great opportunity to rat hole, if you're playing rated. I won't table hop for than 2 or 3 times in the same pit. By then, it's usually time to move on anyway.
I find dealers are more perplexed than anything else when I table hop, especially after winning a few hands in a row. The pit people don't like table hoppers because it's more work for them tracking chip movement. It's also a great opportunity to rat hole, if you're playing rated. I won't table hop for than 2 or 3 times in the same pit. By then, it's usually time to move on anyway.