Beyound Counting?????
- Thread starter RedCell
- Start date
B. C.
Well, I wouldn't call it the "holy grail". It does tell you the math behind how to beat almost every game in a casino. However, it does not tell you "how" to do it. Basically, if you can see a hole card the book will help you. The author also has some very good advise about comportment. It is an advance book, it will not "spoon feed" you. I've made a lot of money with the information that I found in BC. If you have already seen weaknesses in games, this book will help you with the math and strategies after you have found weaknesses for yourself. It is literally worth more weight in gold if you are relentless in finding weak dealers. If not, it is an interesting read.
eBay is the best source.
Well, I wouldn't call it the "holy grail". It does tell you the math behind how to beat almost every game in a casino. However, it does not tell you "how" to do it. Basically, if you can see a hole card the book will help you. The author also has some very good advise about comportment. It is an advance book, it will not "spoon feed" you. I've made a lot of money with the information that I found in BC. If you have already seen weaknesses in games, this book will help you with the math and strategies after you have found weaknesses for yourself. It is literally worth more weight in gold if you are relentless in finding weak dealers. If not, it is an interesting read.
eBay is the best source.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
That's the thing though, anyone can win if they see a hole card.Paradox said:
So what's the best advice? Smoke and drink when you are young so it will stunt your growth. Hole carding is difficult when you're big and I look like a dead body slumped over the table when I try it.
Or I guess you can use the old wheelchair trick, but I'm not sure that I'm willing to cross that line. Ultimate justice, you know.
If you look into the legality of that, you are on very shaky ground. Could easily be construed as using a device. Much along the same line as using special lenses to magnify the cards. It hasn't been prosecuted yet, but you wouldn't have good odds if you got caught.Automatic Monkey said:
RJT.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Not in the US, you cannot discriminate against any wheelchair user in any circumstance except where safety is an issue. The disability activists would demolish anyone who tried prosecuting a wheelchair user because he was able to see cards.RJT said:
RJT is correct
A wheelchair is a device. If your physician prescribes the chair, its a medical necessity. If not, you may find yourself in a nearly indefensible situation. Just because you also want or think you need to use it is not excuse. I've spoken to an attorney, a specialist in gambling law, with whom I addressed this issue. Only a licensed physician can deem it medically necessary.
A wheelchair is a device. If your physician prescribes the chair, its a medical necessity. If not, you may find yourself in a nearly indefensible situation. Just because you also want or think you need to use it is not excuse. I've spoken to an attorney, a specialist in gambling law, with whom I addressed this issue. Only a licensed physician can deem it medically necessary.
moo321
Well-Known Member
Yeah, if your defense was: "A wheelchair isn't a device". But if your defense was: "I have (fill in the blank) problems, and I need to use a wheelchair" I'm sure you'd get off, easily. And probably win a civil judgment under ADA, even if it wasn't prescribed.Paradox said:
Lol, until the court ask for medical certification. Wheelchair is a major disability - not one a court is going to wash off with self-certification. Not many people think this would be an easy case to win. Rightly so as well - it is cheating and it should be illegal, in the same way that using a shiner is and any court judge would look at it that way - especially when they have pressure coming from the casino industry to do so.moo321 said:
There's a good reason pro hole carders aren't all rolling around, and it's not that their leg muscels would suffer.
RJT.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Exactly. Not only that, even the fact that a wheelchair user of any kind was rousted in the casino leads into the "hostile environment" verbiage that turns up in lawsuits, and handicapped people who weren't even involved in the incident can (and will) sue claiming they felt threatened, embarrassed etc. There are people who make their livings with this kind of suit and you don't want to mess with them.moo321 said:
Regarding device law- casinos do provide wheelchairs for their patrons so the claim that a wheelchair provides an unfair advantage to a player would have to fall flat unless the casinos want to implicate themselves as accessories. All you have to do is walk up to a host with a limp to get one. They would also be bound to ban even legitimately handicapped people from the tables if it provided a player with an advantage. Courts are funny in Nevada, but I don't think they would go as far as to ban wheelchairs as a substitute for requiring dealers to protect their own hands. A Federal court certainly wouldn't buy it.
The ADA doesn't work that way.
The ADA definition of disabled is:
A physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities; and has a record of such an impairment.
A physical impairment is defined by the ADA as:
"Any physiological disorder or condition, cosmetic disfigurement, or anatomical loss affecting one or more of the following body systems: neurological, musculoskeletal, special sense organs, respiratory (including speech organs), cardiovascular, reproductive, digestive, genitourinary, hemic and lymphatic, skin, and endocrine."
----
" Under general rules governing lawsuits brought by the Federal government, the Department of Justice may not sue a party unless negotiations to settle the dispute have failed."
This means that if you are discriminated against, you have no real recourse unless the business or gov't has done it habitually or they choose to fight the definitions of the law.
If the problem cannot be resolved by arbitration, only then a suit can be filed and civil penalties assessed. However, the money doesn't go to the person, it is a civil fine and goes to the Feds. After that process you can hire an attorney and sue the offending party.
In the theoretical world, many things seem impossible. In the real world "shiit happens" and the courts sort it out.
If your physician has documented the need for a wheelchair you are absolutely innocent. However if you are asserting a problem that you cannot document it is a gray area. Gray areas are what get sorted out when your trial begins for cheating. In NV, you will have to prove your case with evidence.
Remember, Gaming Control Enforcement is there to assure the tax base for the State of NV. They make sure the games are legal, but they don't particularly like anyone who is not loosing money. Advantage players and cheats take away from the tax base. While AP is legal it is also a negative thing to Gaming Control since it reduces revenue for the state.
Again, the real world of gambling sucks. All the posturing and theory are academic when you are in the back of a Metro cruiser.
The ADA definition of disabled is:
A physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities; and has a record of such an impairment.
A physical impairment is defined by the ADA as:
"Any physiological disorder or condition, cosmetic disfigurement, or anatomical loss affecting one or more of the following body systems: neurological, musculoskeletal, special sense organs, respiratory (including speech organs), cardiovascular, reproductive, digestive, genitourinary, hemic and lymphatic, skin, and endocrine."
----
" Under general rules governing lawsuits brought by the Federal government, the Department of Justice may not sue a party unless negotiations to settle the dispute have failed."
This means that if you are discriminated against, you have no real recourse unless the business or gov't has done it habitually or they choose to fight the definitions of the law.
If the problem cannot be resolved by arbitration, only then a suit can be filed and civil penalties assessed. However, the money doesn't go to the person, it is a civil fine and goes to the Feds. After that process you can hire an attorney and sue the offending party.
In the theoretical world, many things seem impossible. In the real world "shiit happens" and the courts sort it out.
If your physician has documented the need for a wheelchair you are absolutely innocent. However if you are asserting a problem that you cannot document it is a gray area. Gray areas are what get sorted out when your trial begins for cheating. In NV, you will have to prove your case with evidence.
Remember, Gaming Control Enforcement is there to assure the tax base for the State of NV. They make sure the games are legal, but they don't particularly like anyone who is not loosing money. Advantage players and cheats take away from the tax base. While AP is legal it is also a negative thing to Gaming Control since it reduces revenue for the state.
Again, the real world of gambling sucks. All the posturing and theory are academic when you are in the back of a Metro cruiser.
On a slight tangent.....
I'm on a Jet Blue flight from JFK to West palm a few months ago.The pilot comes on the PA to introduce himself and the crew.He tells us we are very lucky because this is a miracle flight.He explains that no matter how many people come aboard in a wheelchair,hardly any need one upon arrival.
I'm on a Jet Blue flight from JFK to West palm a few months ago.The pilot comes on the PA to introduce himself and the crew.He tells us we are very lucky because this is a miracle flight.He explains that no matter how many people come aboard in a wheelchair,hardly any need one upon arrival.
If they were discriminating on a regular bases against people who had legitimate reason to be using a wheelchair, then yes there would be massive outcry about this.Automatic Monkey said:
When they choose to arrest one person, because they believe - and rightly so - that the person does not actually require the wheelchair and is in fact using it solely to get information that is not freely available to the rest of the players at the table, you'd have a hard time getting away with anything.
I can just see all the groups for handicapped rights rushing to the aid of someone who's trivialized the people who genuinely have these debilitating illnesses by pretending without any sort of certification that they need a wheelchair just so they could look at the dealer's down card. Hell, most people believe that card counting's illegal, never mind hole carding - i'm sure public - and court - opinion will go with the cheater because he's using a chair he doesn't need. It's your classic get out of jail free card.
And again, let's raise the fact that teams of pros hole carding professionally aren't calling themselves 'The Wheels of Thunder' and there's good reason. If they thought that they could legitimately get away with it, they would be already. They aren't and that tells you how they view this play - they will already have investigated the legality of this thoroughly and come to the conclusion that it's not viable and likely to get them in far more trouble than its worth - and these are guys that are looking for reason to sue casinos.
RJT.
moo321
Well-Known Member
This is definitely speculative. How do we know there aren't wheelchair hole-carding teams? They sure as **** wouldn't tell ANYONE about it if there were. Hell, I've got a friend in a wheelchair, and I've thought about asking him to learn to hole-card. What about teams that used people who legitimately needed wheelchairs?RJT said:
I do know a few hole carders to speak to.moo321 said:
Maybe i'm not tight enough with them for them to tell me these things or perhaps - as plenty of hole carding teams have been caught and none of them have been in wheelchairs - they aren't playing in wheelchairs.
Just my take on things. If you are so sure that this is legal my suggestion would be to go out and try it and see what happens. I'm tall and i can catch hole cards with a weak dealer, so someone in a wheelchair will have no problems getting 100% information on just about any dealer. All you need to do is learn the correct strategy and you'll have a far far far larger advantage than any counter. Go for it and let us know how you get on.
RJT.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Holecarders have been arrested even without a wheelchair. Casinos think of it as cheating and their anger is amplified because they know it is really their own fault. If a dealer is dealing properly there is no place any patron can legally be where they will see the card, even on the other side of the pit. In Las Vegas "being arrested" and "being guilty" are not the same thing, and casinos have been known to force arrests punitively rather than in good faith.RJT said:
There are AP's who use wheelchairs. I assume they have a medical need but it's not my business to ask. One disturbing trend I've been seeing in the past few years are people using motorized wheelchairs for no reason other than they are fat and find walking tiresome. Being extremely obese is now considered a disability and an obese person can now be certified as disabled and receive the special privileges that come with this certification.
But if having a wheelchair helps you holecard, and having a disability is required to legally use a wheelchair, then all professional holecarders have an obligation to break a leg before going on a holecarding mission. I suppose becoming morbidly obese would be sort of an acceptable substitute, but it troubles me to see people calling themselves professional AP's unwilling to take these steps necessary to improve their game.
Oh i agree completely - a strange thing for me to do with one of your posts. Hole carders have been arrested, the difference is that if they arrest me at the tables for hole carding - a legal play - the charges are not likely to stick and i have good opportunity to take the matter before a judge for wrongful detainment and arrest. If i was arrested for using a wheelchair to spot the hole card - at least when i don't have any certifiable medical condition that would warrant using the wheelie legs - there is a good chance that the 'cheating at play' charge would stick, carrying a heft sentence if i'm unlucky and that i would have no scope for a counter suit.Automatic Monkey said:
As to fat people and wheelchairs; I try to be as accepting of my fellow human beings as i possibly can be tolerant or each and every difference i witness in the spectrum. I do however find it difficult to raise sympathy for someone who is as self-destructive as to get massively obese. There are certain medical conditions that do justify such conditions, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
I compare it to smoking. I used to smoke btw, for a couple of years in my younger days, but ultimately had i contracted some form of cancer because i had smoked i would not feel that society owed me any sympathy or indeed medical treatment (pulic health care). That end would have been my responsibility to bare and i view the negative health consequences of over eating in the same light. It's hard to control, but ultimately if you want to continue with blatantly unhealthy and down right dangerous habits, you shouldn't complain when the inevitable happens and you shouldn't expect society to accommodate you.
I'm not sure i understand the last paragraph of your post - Are you seriously suggesting that pro AP's should harm their physical well being to promote their chances of seeing a hole card legally? There's a risk verses reward element that i think you are missing here, much in the same way that there are plenty of big scores to be made available to those who are prepared to risk some time in the pokey, but most of us are reasonable enough to see that the potential gain is far from worth the potential risk.
RJT.
A little bit of a tangent...
RJT - use of medical resources is different here in the US. In the UK, you guys have come to grips with the limited financial resources available for medical care. For example, those over 60 are denied dialysis because it's just too costly within your socialized system. Here, the norm is to prolong life, no matter what the cost and no matter how pitiful its quality.
RJT - use of medical resources is different here in the US. In the UK, you guys have come to grips with the limited financial resources available for medical care. For example, those over 60 are denied dialysis because it's just too costly within your socialized system. Here, the norm is to prolong life, no matter what the cost and no matter how pitiful its quality.