Blackjack vs Texas Holdem'

creeping panther

creeping panther

Banned
#21
#21
Lg

Lonesome Gambler said:
Let me apologize for Fubster, who is generally a very polite guy in real life. These young guns get a little over-excited on the internet sometimes... ;)

CP, at the next Bash (fingers crossed), what do you say about getting a friendly 7-stud game going?
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Good idea, we should just visit the poker room,,,,should be fun.

Leave for an extended BJ trip in the early morn.:grin:

CP
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#23
#23
creeping panther said:
My poker playing days were before holdem, we played 7 card stud.

It always bothered me taking money from other players when I did it through bluffs, but it sure was fun. Hard to top a fine BJ game though.

CP
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Seven-card stud was my game, as well. The last time I played was in Reno three years ago. I played all night long and was a few dollars ahead at the end of the night. I guess I play too tight; I never seem to have big winners. :sad:
 
F

fubster

Well-Known Member
#27
#27
creeping panther said:
Retards?

Think about that statement for awhile.:(

CP
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wrong word choice, was just trying to illustrate a point. i actually don't even like negative terms for -EV gamblers in general. no offense to disabled people of course.

in any case, the point that i was trying to make is that lots of people have the misconception that "good players win a ton of money bluffing" which simply isn't true at all. the vast majority of money won by winning players in poker is done because good players are able to extract value more correctly more often
 
F

fubster

Well-Known Member
#28
#28
1357111317 said:
To be honest I find poker more fun. There is a lot more thinkign involved and you can outthink the other players to beat them. Blackjack you can't really outthink the dealer (Ok maybe some of you can manipulate them a little bit but still). Also blackjack you can see winrates that are wayyy higher than poker in terms of live play. In poker if you are a really good player you can probably make about 15bb/100 at a 5/10 game (That is crushing it), that equates to roughly 50 dollars an hour. Blackjack you can make upwards of 200$ an hour with a good game without too many skills. Now granted that blackjack game might not always be there and the poker game will but my point is that as people have stated before me, the learning curve on poker is huge compared to blackjack.
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15bb/100 playing live, right?

regarding poker always being there: the losing players aren't nearly as poor as they used to be, and the winning players are improving at a startling rate. it's hard to say that poker will die (it won't) but it's certainly getting progressively harder to win.
 
F

fubster

Well-Known Member
#29
#29
aslan said:
Seven-card stud was my game, as well. The last time I played was in Reno three years ago. I played all night long and was a few dollars ahead at the end of the night. I guess I play too tight; I never seem to have big winners. :sad:
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i'd guess this is because variance is lower in stud games, so there won't be as many massive wins in a single session.

playing looser will increase variance, but probably will decrease your winrate as well.
 
creeping panther

creeping panther

Banned
#30
#30
Aslan

aslan said:
Seven-card stud was my game, as well. The last time I played was in Reno three years ago. I played all night long and was a few dollars ahead at the end of the night. I guess I play too tight; I never seem to have big winners. :sad:
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I used to play all night too...on weekends after work at the casino. You know it was alot of fun....relaxing.

CP
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#31
#31
fubster said:
wrong word choice, was just trying to illustrate a point. i actually don't even like negative terms for -EV gamblers in general. no offense to disabled people of course.

in any case, the point that i was trying to make is that lots of people have the misconception that "good players win a ton of money bluffing" which simply isn't true at all. the vast majority of money won by winning players in poker is done because good players are able to extract value more correctly more often
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But there are some staple bluffs in seven card stud without which it would be hard to stay in the game. I'm talking about table position plays, which may not win much more than the ante, but there are also some classic situational bluffs (I'll call them) that are almost indispensable. If you never bluff you'll have a very difficult time getting called except by the rankest of amateurs. Just my two cents worth. :grin::whip:
 
C

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#33
#33
fubster said:
you aren't taking into account that most people lose at poker and it take a LOT of time and effort to become a winning player at any stakes that actually make a difference.
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Actually, I do take that into account (scaling), but at small stakes games it's not that most people who try lose at poker, it's that a lot of people don't try very hard. Most people know that when they coldcall your preflop raise with 75o they're underdogs, they simply don't care. It's fun for them, and they'll pay a few bucks an hour to have fun.

If you bother trying at the small stakes games, it's pretty easy to become a small winner.

fubster said:
blackjack math and poker math just don't mesh.
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It's all the same. Blackjack, poker, stock market ... it's called different things (in finance it's alpha, blackjack it's SCORE, etc.) but it's really the same quantity when you get down to it, a measure of expected return per volatility.
 
F

fubster

Well-Known Member
#34
#34
aslan said:
But there are some staple bluffs in seven card stud without which it would be hard to stay in the game. I'm talking about table position plays, which may not win much more than the ante, but there are also some classic situational bluffs (I'll call them) that are almost indispensable. If you never bluff you'll have a very difficult time getting called except by the rankest of amateurs. Just my two cents worth. :grin::whip:
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i could be wrong, 7 card stud is probably my 2nd worst game of all... but i think the most money comes from proper valuebetting on later streets.

again with an awful blackjack analogy: sure, proper bs will get you through the awful counts, but when you have a ton of splits and doubles out with a max bet, that's where the money is

same with poker. when the pot's big and you're on a bigbet street, that's where the money's made.
 
F

fubster

Well-Known Member
#35
#35
callipygian said:
Actually, I do take that into account (scaling), but at small stakes games it's not that most people who try lose at poker, it's that a lot of people don't try very hard. Most people know that when they coldcall your preflop raise with 75o they're underdogs, they simply don't care. It's fun for them, and they'll pay a few bucks an hour to have fun.

If you bother trying at the small stakes games, it's pretty easy to become a small winner.



It's all the same. Blackjack, poker, stock market ... it's called different things (in finance it's alpha, blackjack it's SCORE, etc.) but it's really the same quantity when you get down to it, a measure of expected return per volatility.
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totally agree about the people knowing they're not winners at the game

and yeah, it's the same. i probably worded it wrong... variance is variance, but how it applies is different in poker (i think?)
 
1

1357111317

Well-Known Member
#36
#36
fubster said:
15bb/100 playing live, right?

regarding poker always being there: the losing players aren't nearly as poor as they used to be, and the winning players are improving at a startling rate. it's hard to say that poker will die (it won't) but it's certainly getting progressively harder to win.
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Yeah I'm sure a good a really good player can make 15bb/100 at a live 5/10 game where people call PF raises of 100 with an 800 dollar stack with 35. Or call 120 preflop with Q2s and 86o in hopes of running you down.
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#37
#37
fubster said:
i could be wrong, 7 card stud is probably my 2nd worst game of all... but i think the most money comes from proper valuebetting on later streets.

again with an awful blackjack analogy: sure, proper bs will get you through the awful counts, but when you have a ton of splits and doubles out with a max bet, that's where the money is

same with poker. when the pot's big and you're on a bigbet street, that's where the money's made.
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I'm not arguing with you. Knowing what hands are worth pursuing is critical.

Still you have to be able to keep your head above water while you wait patiently for that big pot where you have it wired, or the amount of money in the pot makes it worth staying in for. "Stealing" antes based largely on position play is one of those moves that I believe all the best players routinely do, otherwise they'll find themselves priced out of the action by lost antes alone. Then there are the carefully orchestrated bluffs that sometimes turn into big pots, except when the big pots are there, so are the cards--oops, I wasn't bluffing that time.:eek::whip:

Also, giving the impression that you always have it will lessen your chances of getting the big calls that make a difference. Just playing by the book will give you the unwanted reputation of locksmith.
 
T

Thunder

Well-Known Member
#39
#39
As someone who plays blackjack and poker, I'm going to say BJ is the more fun game to play at least in the casino because you don't have to wait forever to play a hand. In poker, I sometimes go over an hour without playing one single hand because that's pretty much what you have to do to win. In a 9 player game it's about being the most selective. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people go all in on trips and lose because they were playing 10,8 while the other guy was playing k,10. It's much harder though to win now in nl poker than it was a few years ago. Everyone now it seems is a lot tighter and tend to give you less action. I miss the days where I was guaranteed to get paid off at least $50 with pocket aces. Now, I'm lucky if anyone calls if I raise preflop.
 
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