#### brighten

##### Member
a casino nearby offers this bonus for a short period :
on a 6 deck game, regurlar rule, bJ pays 3:2, das, resplit Ace, no LS . they give 25\$ more on any five card charlie, (5 cards no bust). 10\$ minimum bet is required. the hand still pay if you win the hand.
they cut really shallow, no need to cout at all. i believe this bonus will give huge edge. I am wondering what is the winning rate/1oo hands with this bonus offer. what is the standard deviation? sonny,can you run a sim of this game ? thanks a million. any strategy table to play this game?

thanks a lot!

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#### Mikeaber

##### Well-Known Member
If you got a "charlie" every hand and bet the \$10 minimum, you would realize a 2.5% increase over the house edge (which is around .63%). In other words, you'd have an edge of about 1.9%. However, you are NOT going to get that 5-card hand every time. I wouldn't think this would be an enormous advantage though of course, it will help you out some.

#### Eliot Jacobson

##### Member
Not quite

>If you got a "charlie" every hand and bet the \$10 minimum, you would realize a 2.5% increase over the house edge (which is around .63%).

Actually, if you got the charlie every hand, you would have a 250% increase over the house edge, since \$25 is 250% of \$10.

But Math aside, this is clearly a highly profitable game and knowing the exact edge is not necessary.

In normal "5 card charlie" the rule is that 5 cards automatically win. 5 card charlie basic strategy is available in numerous sources, here is a summary of the changes to basic strategy playing "5 card charlie always wins" (thanks to a friend for passing this along to me):

split 4s vs 6 only
split 3s vs 4-7 only
split 2s vs 5,6
split aces 2-8 only
double A5 vs 5,6 only
double A4 vs 6 only
dont double A3 or A2

If you have a 3 card hand...

hit soft 19 vs 10
hit soft 18 vs everything but 7
hit 13 vs 2
hit 12 always

If you have a 4 card hand...

hit any hand that cant bust
hit hard 17 vs 8-A
hit hard 16 vs 2,3
hit hard 15 or less always

Now, the game you found is MUCH better than 5 card charlie. To see this note that with the rule that "5 card charlie is an automatic winner" you bring back \$20 for every \$10 you bet. In this game you bring back a minimum of \$25 for \$10 bet, and you may bring back \$45. Because of this, the strategy above is most likely too strict -- you probably should hit 4 card 16's vs. 2 and 3 and never split aces, and possibly more changes. The edge is huge here, it's not worth computing, just play!

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#### Mikeaber

##### Well-Known Member
DANG! I misread! I thought it was a \$.25 bonus not a \$25.00 bonus! My bad.

#### MGP

##### Well-Known Member
a casino nearby offers this bonus for a short period :
on a 6 deck game, regurlar rule, bJ pays 3:2, das, resplit Ace, no LS .
I take this to mean DAS, DOA, OBO as well. Did you mean to say Resplit Aces or no resplit aces. Analysis below is with Resplit Aces.

they give 25\$ more on any five card charlie, (5 cards no bust). 10\$ minimum bet is required. the hand still pay if you win the hand.
So if I understand this correctly then if you get 5 cards then you are paid \$25 on your \$10 bet and then the hand plays on. If you then win the hand you get another \$10 but if you lose it then you lose the original \$10.

Given these assumptions then the results are much better:

CD EV: 6.25893142920151%
No Brainer EV: 5.29197963148516%

If I have time later I'll post the full strategies but they're different then what Eliot is giving below because of the play through aspect I believe. The No brainer EV simply uses the 2-C strategy posted below and then Hits all 4 card soft hands and stands on all 5 card hard/soft hands.

It'll take awhile to do a full n-card dependent strategy analysis though so I might not do it but for starters the 2C strategy will be given in the next two posts.

Sincerely,
MGP

#### MGP

##### Well-Known Member
In a 2C strategy - you play the first two cards in a composition dependent way and then all multi-card hands with a TD strategy. The composition dependent plays are the same pre and post-split.

Here's the 2-Card CD part and the TD multi-card part will follow in the next post:

HTML:
``````2 Card Dependent
Hard 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
2, 3	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 5	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
3, 4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 6	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
3, 5	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 7	H	H	H	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
3, 6	H	H	H	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
4, 5	H	H	H	D	D	H	H	H	H	H
2, 8	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
3, 7	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
4, 6	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
2, 9	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
3, 8	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
4, 7	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
5, 6	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
2, 10	H	H	H	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
3, 9	H	H	H	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
4, 8	H	H	H	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
5, 7	H	H	H	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
3, 10	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
4, 9	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
5, 8	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
6, 7	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
4, 10	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
5, 9	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
6, 8	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
5, 10	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
6, 9	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
7, 8	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
6, 10	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
7, 9	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H	H
7, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
8, 9	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
8, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
9, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S

2 Card Dependent
Soft	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
A, 2	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
A, 3	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
A, 4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
A, 5	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
A, 6	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
A, 7	H	H	D	D	D	S	H	H	H	H
A, 8	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
A, 9	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
A, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S

2 Card Dependent
Pairs	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
A, A	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
2, 2	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
3, 3	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
4, 4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
5, 5	D	D	D	D	D	D	D	H	H	H
6, 6	H	P, H	P, H	P, S	P, S	H	H	H	H	H
7, 7	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, H	H	H	H	H
8, 8	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H	P, H
9, 9	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	P, S	S	P, S	P, S	S	S
10, 10	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S``````

#### MGP

##### Well-Known Member
And here's the TD part of the 2C strategy. Note that these strategies only apply to the non-forced strategy hands (i.e. 5 card hard/soft stand and 4 card soft hit):

HTML:
``````2C Strategy
Hard 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
4	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
5	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
6	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
7	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
8	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
9	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
10	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
11	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
12	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
13	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
14	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
15	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
16	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
17	S	S	S	S	S	S	H	H	H	H
18	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
19	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
20	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S
21	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S

2C Strategy
Soft 	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	1
12	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
13	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
14	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
15	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
16	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
17	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
18	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
19	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
20	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H	H
21	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S	S``````

#### MGP

##### Well-Known Member
Final comment for now:

You should be able to get really close to the full CD-EV since this is 6 deck using n-card exceptions but I'm guessing there will be quite a few as Eliot suggested. It might make you stand out though as an AP and this game isn't going to last long at all anyway so giving that away might not be worth it. In fact it doesn't make sense that this game exists at all but good find.

Good luck
MGP

#### brighten

##### Member
thanks so much and more question.

thanks a lot for mayer and MGP 's valueble input, it helps a lot!

IT agree that this game does not make sense at all with such big player edge. it is so unbelieve that this game still exits and will last for a few more days. it is part of this casino's promotion.
I am doing pretty good these days. thanks a lot for MVP's chart. I have a little more question though.
since most lost stake table are packed most of time, I prefer to play table with 25\$ minimum, which still pay 25\$ when getting 5 cards no bust. Compared with 10\$ min, this hurts EV a little bit , but I would say no much.
I am wondering if you are so kind as to generate a similiar stategy chart of the above game with 25\$ min. what is the edge I achieve if I play 25\$ min then?
Also, it would be really nice if you can give me some stragety on 3 card play with the payout structure above. Like if you got soft 19 with 3 card, if againt 9, should hit or stay? or 3 cards 12 againt 4,,5,6, should hit or stay?
this is probably very rare chance , I really wanna maximize EV.

thanks!

#### zengrifter

##### Banned
brighten said:
since most lost stake table are packed most of time, I prefer to play table with 25\$ minimum, which still pay 25\$ when getting 5 cards no bust. Compared with 10\$ min, this hurts EV a little bit , but I would say no much.
I think the net effect deteriorates the big advantage. You should get the \$10 table early before it fills up and play two hands always - even if it requires two hands of \$20. And bet bigger if the count warrants it. zg

#### MGP

##### Well-Known Member
thanks a lot for mayer and MGP 's valueble input, it helps a lot!
Your'e welcome

I prefer to play table with 25\$ minimum, which still pay 25\$ when getting 5 cards no bust. Compared with 10\$ min, this hurts EV a little bit , but I would say no much.
Actually, reducing the payoff from 2.5:1 for the 5-card Charlie down to 1:1 has a big effect with a drop in the CD EV down to:

CD EV: 1.50991984797564%

This means in order for it to be worth playing at the \$25 table you'd have to have a much faster game.

Let's say you play 100 hands/hour at the \$10 game. Then your EV/hour is:

\$10*.05*100 = \$50

At the \$25 table you'd only get using completely optimal strategy:

\$25*.01*100 = \$25

So you'd have to have double the number of hands per hour to make it worth sitting at the \$25 table compared to the \$10 one.

Also, it would be really nice if you can give me some stragety on 3 card play with the payout structure above. Like if you got soft 19 with 3 card, if againt 9, should hit or stay? or 3 cards 12 againt 4,,5,6, should hit or stay?
this is probably very rare chance , I really wanna maximize EV.
Actually I already did if you read my post carefully The 2C strategy is total dependent for 3 or more cards so based on the tables below you should hit all soft totals except 21 against all upcards if the hand consists of 3 or more cards. Note that the No-Brainer strategy included hitting 4-card soft 21's though. The analysis is for the \$10 table.

The only Exceptions to the below strategy include that I'm seeing easily are:

Hit all 4-card Hard 17s vs 2-7
Hit 4-card 18 vs 9,10

Using those you get:

EV: 5.58305398843913%

Note that in the tables below, the value from hitting 4-card hands overrides the value of staying on 3-card hands for many of the plays. So actually if you wanted even more EV you'd stand on the following 3-card hands:

Stand on 3-card Hands of:
Hard 14 vs 5-6
Hard 15 vs 2-6
Hard 16 vs 2-6

Using those in addition to the above and the tables below gives:

EV: 5.83331464292677%

I believe the rest of the EV difference form the CD EV is probably coming from exceptions to the "No Brainer" rules since you can actually play the hand through and still win, so you might want to hit some 5 or more card hands instead of standing on all of them, but I'm not going through every possible hand to find out. If I have time I'll post the tables for the \$25 table but I don't right now.

Good luck and enjoy the game while it lasts