BP team questions

[chrisss]

Say I have a BP Team with a BP and 4 spotters - if you added another BP with another 4 spotters, would you be lowering variance and increasing EV but also increasing ROR?

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

No, your RoR would stay the same, given that you use the same units for both BP/spotter groups. But yes, your winrate will be about double and your variance will be about half.

 

[chrisss]

Oh ok i thought that might be how it worked. How do I account for BPs on Blackjack Sim software? I was trying to figure out win rates but I kept getting confused

I am trying to find ROR and such. Do I enter a very low number of hands per hour at a high edge because the BP is playing so few hands?

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Other people here will have a better opinion on this than I do, but I believe you would need to run two sims: one for the spotters and one for the BPs. The rest of the math is self-explanatory. Anyone else have input on this?

 

[RJT]

Other people here will have a better opinion on this than I do, but I believe you would need to run two sims: one for the spotters and one for the BPs. The rest of the math is self-explanatory. Anyone else have input on this?

Alternatively you can just use a normal sim, with a very low -ve count bet and a very high +ve count bet - all a BP does is mask a huge bet spread. This will give you results for one spotter and a BP, getting a sim to cover multiple spotters playing at the same time with one BP is more difficult - I don't know, Qfit might be able to help you.

RJT.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Diminishing Returns

If you have 4 spotters and 1 bp working at the same time the overlapp will be huge and counterproductive. It will be a case of diminishing returns. There will often be 2 or even 3 tables ready for play but only one bp.

Whether the bp watches tables or not the best matchup is probably 1 or 2 spotters with the bp. However, if you have 4 spotters this does allow you to switch spotters on a day or trip basis.

Sim for 2 spotters but realize there will be some overlap, so the numbers will be much better then 1 but not quite 2.:joker::whip:

 

[RJT]

The few teams i've been aware of have all agreed that 3 spotters is the optimal number. DS showed in BA that 2 was mathematically correct, but failed to take into account some the realities of live play.

RJT

 

[aslan]

The few teams i've been aware of have all agreed that 3 spotters is the optimal number. DS showed in BA that 2 was mathematically correct, but failed to take into account some the realities of live play.

RJT

Do you recall any of those realities of live play. I have a trip to Vegas coming up soon and know an AP who lives there who wants to create a new team.

 

[RJT]

Do you recall any of those realities of live play. I have a trip to Vegas coming up soon and know an AP who lives there who wants to create a new team.

It's been many years since i had those conversations, and honestly i've little desire to trail through BA again - while it has some interesting information i found it a very dull read - but from what i remember it all came down to the logistics of opporating a BP team in the casino. Dropped signals, getting between one table and another in crowed conditions etc all added up to 3 spotters providing a better win rate after pay considerations were taken into account.
Bare in mind that all the teams i referred to were profitable but are also defunct.
If you really want advice from someone with a wealth of hands on experience with that style of play you want to talk to either Bojack or Maz, although from my understanding of things it may now be difficult to coax Maz into posting on any subject what-so-ever.

RJT.

 

[moo321]

Personally, I don't recommend BP teams for most people. It's not that they don't work, it's just that every man for himself works much better.

The only exception is if you have a very large bankroll, and you need to run a BP team to get big bets down. It also helps because you can have less trustworthy spotters, because they don't handle much money.

EMFH will have much better returns per hour, lower variance, and more hands played at an advantage, so you'll hit the long run faster.

On the other hand, if I had a million bucks, would I pay some college kids $20 an hour to spot for me... yeah.

 

[RJT]

Personally, I don't recommend BP teams for most people. It's not that they don't work, it's just that every man for himself works much better.

The only exception is if you have a very large bankroll, and you need to run a BP team to get big bets down. It also helps because you can have less trustworthy spotters, because they don't handle much money.

EMFH will have much better returns per hour, lower variance, and more hands played at an advantage, so you'll hit the long run faster.

On the other hand, if I had a million bucks, would I pay some college kids $20 an hour to spot for me... yeah.

And you'll have a far longer lifespan if you know what you're doing - which can add up to a lot.

RJT.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Personally, I don't recommend BP teams for most people. It's not that they don't work, it's just that every man for himself works much better.

The only exception is if you have a very large bankroll, and you need to run a BP team to get big bets down. It also helps because you can have less trustworthy spotters, because they don't handle much money.

EMFH will have much better returns per hour, lower variance, and more hands played at an advantage, so you'll hit the long run faster.

On the other hand, if I had a million bucks, would I pay some college kids $20 an hour to spot for me... yeah.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=16872

Our EMFH have been doing fairly well so far Since the OP, we have added $ to our BR in addition to a new member. I will prob post a follow up in a couple months after our next trip

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Personally, I don't recommend BP teams for most people. It's not that they don't work, it's just that every man for himself works much better.

The only exception is if you have a very large bankroll, and you need to run a BP team to get big bets down. It also helps because you can have less trustworthy spotters, because they don't handle much money.

EMFH will have much better returns per hour, lower variance, and more hands played at an advantage, so you'll hit the long run faster.

On the other hand, if I had a million bucks, would I pay some college kids $20 an hour to spot for me... yeah.

No, why would you do that? If you had a million bucks why would you risk it by teaming with inexperienced players?

If you're planning on getting bets of that magnitude down good luck finding a mid-shoe table that will accept them anyway, so you can forget about spotters. But maybe I would pay someone $20 per hour to eat cards and insurance-count for me.

 

[aslan]

It's been many years since i had those conversations, and honestly i've little desire to trail through BA again - while it has some interesting information i found it a very dull read - but from what i remember it all came down to the logistics of opporating a BP team in the casino. Dropped signals, getting between one table and another in crowed conditions etc all added up to 3 spotters providing a better win rate after pay considerations were taken into account.
Bare in mind that all the teams i referred to were profitable but are also defunct.
If you really want advice from someone with a wealth of hands on experience with that style of play you want to talk to either Bojack or Maz, although from my understanding of things it may now be difficult to coax Maz into posting on any subject what-so-ever.

RJT.

The fellow I hope to team up with is a veteran counter of more than 18 years, which I know in and of itself means nothing. He told me on my last visit how he had recently been using a team of three players which included himself, the BP. Their job was to keep the count and signal him in. The spotter stayed at the table when he arrived and instead of passing him the count, he signaled him during the game (how and what I don't know) and continued to play minimum bet. He was dismayed that after winning $24,000, they decided to return to CA. He couldn't fathom their decision. I guess it took some time to train them and then they walked out, which stunned him.

 

[Pro21]

The fellow I hope to team up with is a veteran counter of more than 18 years, which I know in and of itself means nothing. He told me on my last visit how he had recently been using a team of three players which included himself, the BP. Their job was to keep the count and signal him in. The spotter stayed at the table when he arrived and instead of passing him the count, he signaled him during the game (how and what I don't know) and continued to play minimum bet. He was dismayed that after winning $24,000, they decided to return to CA. He couldn't fathom their decision. I guess it took some time to train them and then they walked out, which stunned him.

How much was he paying them?

 

[EmeraldCityBJ]

Say I have a BP Team with a BP and 4 spotters - if you added another BP with another 4 spotters, would you be lowering variance and increasing EV but also increasing ROR?

With five players total, I think a 3:2 spotter:BP ratio would be much better than the 4:1 you suggest.

Practically speaking, I'm not sure there are too many places where 5 players is realistic given the number of available tables during slow periods and crowding during busier periods. Another consideration is with this many players, it's extremely difficult to run a smooth operation. Every time you add a player, you increase the likelihood that someone will screw up and blow everyone else's cover.

 

[aslan]

How much was he paying them?

I don't know. My impression was a good percentage. Good question--I'll ask him when I see him in May. I suppose it would matter whether they were simply "hired hands" or actually putting up a portion of the overall bankroll.