Card Counters Get Heave-Ho

#1
CONNECTICUT NEWS
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Odds Are Card Counters Get Heave-Ho
Casinos Ever Vigilant To Toss Crafty Bettors
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September 16, 2005
By RICK GREEN, Courant Staff Writer

LAS VEGAS -- There was the time Johnny Chang showed up at a casino here dressed as a woman, trying to slide up to the blackjack tables without being noticed.

Chang, part of the famous team of blackjack players from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology that ravaged casinos for a time during the 1990s, is among the best of the "card counters," gamblers who know how to beat the house because they watch every card.

They are organized, methodical and, as this well-known Chang story illustrates, willing to do whatever it takes to get a seat at a blackjack table. These days, casinos keep a close watch on card counters, monitoring them with video cameras and compiling computer dossiers on them.

"They might play in Connecticut one weekend, and then they are in Atlantic City the next, and then they are overseas," said Dave Rapp, a former private investigator who now is vice president of security for Biometrica, a company that provides security and intelligence services to casinos.

Card counters aren't cheaters. It's not illegal to do what they do, keeping track of the high-value and low-value cards played so they know when to place a large bet. But casinos like to do everything they can to drive them out, including asking them to leave or excluding them outright.

The cheaters who use high-tech, illegal gadgets to foil slot machines or small cameras and other devices to count cards obviously aren't welcome on the gambling floor.

But it's a little-known side of the gambling world that the casinos also don't want players who are too good.

Consultants at this week's Global Gaming Expo meeting in Las Vegas said the explosion of casino gambling across the country has created fresh opportunities for organized card-counting groups.

With dozens of members, the groups are actively working U.S. casinos, said Charlie Guenther, a security and intelligence consultant.

"They are in paradise," Guenther said. "In the U.S., we probably have six premiere card-counting groups. It is a business."

"They have homes and condos in different parts of the country. They have an incredible understanding of math and how it equates to playing the game of blackjack," he said. "They can track every single card and tell when it is a favorable time to place bets."

Douglas L. Florence, a card counter who now teaches seminars on how to recognize a pro, said casinos have no choice but to watch out for these players because they take too much of the house's money.

With sophisticated cameras that track every game and every player, it's possible to target a blackjack game where it looks like a card counter is in action, Florence said. Usually, it's a game where the house is losing big time.

"We go after the guys out there mining the properties. [Casinos] have the right to refuse service," said Florence. "As a business, we just can't afford to have that type of player."
 

Victoria

Well-Known Member
#2
paranoia and greed

I have said it before. Want to be rich, forget cardcounting. Just come up with something that appeals to the fear, paranoia and greed of casinos and the money comes rolling in. At G2E, that is exactly what they are selling. There is a counter hiding behind every slot machine just waiting to pounce on your game.
Victoria
 
#3
different perspective

Notice who is spreading the rumors that we are "hitting the casinos in droves, taking their money, raiding their vaults, beating their tables, raping their women (well, maybe not raping their women)." It is the security a**holes themselves. They are building up a huge threat, that only _they_ can protect the casinos from.

Sound familiar?

Can you spell Griffin?

Now Biometric?

These moronic casino operators are letting the foxes guard the henhouse, and they are paying these foxes a fortune to keep one mangy old rat out.

Oops, did I say that? :)

These security people know what they are doing. Scare hell out of the casino execs, the shareholders, the pit critters, and convince 'em only the security companies can protect them from this insidious/ingenious plague of counting scumbags...
 

Victoria

Well-Known Member
#5
I agree but do not forget the rest

Besides those selling their services there is also those selling their so called table systems, the shufflemasters and bally gaming types.

When you break it down, Griffin, Shufflemaster, whoever, they are all selling the same thing. Fear to the paranoid.

It is an easy sale.
 
#6
of course

The casinos are putting up with the shufflemasters and the new and improved shoes, and new and improved dealer training to improve game protection. Everybody is selling "new and improved" things to them (of course, mindplay, RFID, better video resolution for the eye, better recording technology, etc as well). All based on the single premise that "those damned card counters are coming into your casino in masses, using team-concepts, and taking millions out every week. Wouldn't you really prefer to spend just a few million with us, and save those weekly millions that are being stolen by the bastard counters???

And the casino management just eats it up and says "hell yes, in fact, sell me two of everything, I'll stop those bastards and run them to other stores where they can wreck their havoc on them, and not on me."

One of the best "marketing plans" I have ever seen. Based on lots of superstition, and stupidity.

Of course, the casinos still lose to the counters. And now they are losing to the "new and improved" system sellers as well. Serves 'em right. :)
 

Mayor

Well-Known Member
#7
Can't stop the bleeding

Although card counters don't do much damage, there are other forms of AP that do. That damage bleeds over to the counters, since counters are the easiest to catch. It's more important for lower management to catch people than it is for them to stop the bleeding. This sounds strange, but that's the motivation. If you visit the LVC OR Plaza you will see shoes for their double deck. Do you think those were put there to stop counters?
 
#8
hmm

When I played at the plaza in early July, I didn't see any shoes for the DD games I played there. Is this new? The games I played were just normal "pitched" games.. adding a shoe would stop what, hole-carding???

But you are right of course. So long as they "catch somebody, anybody" they justify their miserable jobs... :)
 

Shaggy18vw

Well-Known Member
#9
Shoes on their DD!!!

Mayor,
When did they start this? It's been a month since my last Vegas run and this wasn't implemented then. Are they dealing face up as well?

-Shaggy
 
#10
At least shoes discourage pref shuffle

When there's a shoe and a cut card the ploppies expect to see that cut card come out and they'll balk if it doesn't happen, so that's an advantage for a counter. Paris/Bally's has been dealing their lousy-pen DD from a shoe, face-up for a while, mid-shoe entry allowed. Can't complain too much.
 

Mayor

Well-Known Member
#12
Can't say exactly when

I was there in early August, no shoes. I was there in mid-September, there were shoes.

Yes, it is face up, S17, DD.
 

LV Bear

Administrator
#13
Griffin says AP's are an "organized crime movement" *LINK*

The gaming industry is under siege from opportunistic scam artists worldwide. Converging on the Internet, these gaming cheaters represent the organized crime movement of the new millennium.

LOL!
 

Mayor

Well-Known Member
#17
Is that you, Bev?

The page says that these groups are "Converging on the Internet." I don't know of any cheating/scam artists that have boards up discussing methods of cheating or scamming casinos. However, there are many sites up discussing counting and advantage play.

Bev honestly believes that APs are cheaters and scam artists. If she doesn't directly say "card counters" then it's even worse by implication.

--Mayor
 

LV Bear

Administrator
#18
On the witness stand, Robert Griffin made an idiotic statement that demonstrated his stupidity and dishonesty

"They are cheaters," he said while pointing at the plaintiffs. There is no evidence that these two highly-skilled players have ever cheated, or would need to cheat in order to win. It was an incredibly stupid statement. I think Mr. Griffin's arrogance and pomposity outraged the jury. He is truly a miserable, dishonest, despicable individual.
 
#19
The article could refer to bonus scammers...

...(NOT legit bonus hustlers), or online poker cheats. Honestly that was the first thing I thought of when I read that wording. "Converging on the internet" implies that their target is the internet, i.e., internet gaming sites, not that they are meeting online like we do here.
 

SecurityRisk

Well-Known Member
#20
No

No, this is not Bev. I was just pointing out that the page linked says nothing about AP's. I'm not defending Griffin. I'm a card counter myself. I was just pointing out that the page linked did not say that AP's are an organized crime movement.
 
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