Card counting vs. drug dealing?

[bondon]

I've taken about a year hiatus from playing the tables (bought a house with my bankroll) and I've met the love of my life during that time. One day she asked me how I control my emotions so well. Not wanting to keep any secrets from her, I told it was from the countless hours I spent counting cards, dealing with negative variance, and having to keep my emotions in check for AP survival.

She later went on to compare counting cards to dealing drugs saying how it was morally wrong and how it wasn't contributing to society. Since then, I've tried to invest the so called 'legitimate' way (stock market, savings, RRSP) but I'm getting frustrated at the lack of control I have over the rate of return of these investments.

I've had a taste of the life as an AP and I don't think I can stay away :O

I'd be interested to see what the thoughts of the members are on this matter!

 

[Homeschool]

Card counting is morally wrong and doesn't contribute to society? Since when is being smart enough to play a game better then the average Joe "morally wrong"? If there were no money to be made would she still see it as morally wrong?

I'm also curious which casino she has ever been to that "contributes to society" in a positive way.

Good Luck!

Homeschool

 

[southAP]

it probably doesnt "contribute" to society, but it contributes to paying my bills. Whats morally wrong is using peoples weakness aka gambling addiction, to pay for the porche thats sitting in the driveways of casino ceo's. In my opinion its immoral not to count cards.

 

[kewljason]

I've had a taste of the life as an AP and I don't think I can stay away :O

I am not going to weigh in on the card counters not contributing to society. We have had that discussion before on this site. But I will say this particular statement of your seems like a major conflict with "the love of your life". Good luck with that.

 

[Sucker]

She later went on to compare counting cards to dealing drugs saying how it was morally wrong and how it wasn't contributing to society.

And what has SHE contributed? I've heard this argument many times before.

I have 3 grown children that are college graduates. My oldest son owns his own company, thanks to his business degree. One daughter is a registered nurse who works with handicapped children; the other is a dental technician, making over 100K yr. Every single penny of their college educations was financed through blackjack winnings.

A certain contributor to this site once called me a 60 year old bustout, and he may even have a point; but NO ONE will ever be able to tell me that I've never contributed anything to society!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It doesn't contribute to society. But you can use the money to contribute to society. Once you have money you are very free to be as philanthropic as you wish, or you can use it to start a productive enterprise. Or you can buy her jewelry. Funny how that changes things.

Unlike drug dealing, you are not distributing a poison nor exposing yourself and others to criminal prosecution.

 

[tensplitter]

The morally wrong aspect may be because the money you win is money that is lost by people with gambling addictions. I see too many degenerate gamblers at the tables I play at when I play overnight. I see some of the same people playing till they lose, using a progression, flat betting, or (my favorite) varying their bets randomly not based on the count, and buying in for more after losing. They also make stupid plays like doubling down hard 13 or a pair of aces, splitting tens when the count is low, standing on a soft 16 (it's a SIX!!!), even hitting a hard 17. But then again I act like a degenerate gambler to blend in, looking like I'm losing most of my sessions by ratholing and playing till I "lose" if I win my big bets.

 

[creeping panther]

Missing the point

What we have here is a prime example of the casino winning the propaganda war and convincing the majority of the public that AP's are cheats and criminals.

In essence we are in many peoples eyes, low-lifes.

All of the above is very disturbing.

Maybe we can do something to change that myth,,,like I am sure the Robin Hood gent is doing in his own way.

CP

 

[creeping panther]

Sucker

And what has SHE contributed? I've heard this argument many times before.

I have 3 grown children that are college graduates. My oldest son owns his own company, thanks to his business degree. One daughter is a registered nurse who works with handicapped children; the other is a dental technician, making over 100K yr. Every single penny of their college educations was financed through blackjack winnings.

A certain contributor to this site once called me a 60 year old bustout, and he may even have a point; but NO ONE will ever be able to tell me that I've never contributed anything to society!

Good for you Sucker, a very noble thing indeed,,,giving your children an education.

I hope the rest of your life is doing what you want,,,and I and a few others
here are 60 or more and still in the game, just cannot stay up as late and when we think the young hotties in the casino are flirting we us, they really just think we are Grandpa!:laugh::sad::grin:

CP

 

[Sucker]

What we have here is a prime example of the casino winning the propaganda war and convincing the majority of the public that AP's are cheats and criminals.

In essence we are in many peoples eyes, low-lifes.

All of the above is very disturbing.

CP

And this sums up the problem perfectly.....

 

[prankster]

I've taken about a year hiatus from playing the tables (bought a house with my bankroll) and I've met the love of my life during that time. One day she asked me how I control my emotions so well. Not wanting to keep any secrets from her, I told it was from the countless hours I spent counting cards, dealing with negative variance, and having to keep my emotions in check for AP survival.

She later went on to compare counting cards to dealing drugs saying how it was morally wrong and how it wasn't contributing to society. Since then, I've tried to invest the so called 'legitimate' way (stock market, savings, RRSP) but I'm getting frustrated at the lack of control I have over the rate of return of these investments.

I've had a taste of the life as an AP and I don't think I can stay away :O

I'd be interested to see what the thoughts of the members are on this matter!

Give me a break!:joker:

 

[zoomie]

Zero sum game

AP playing is a zero sum game, hence socially unproductive - we just move wealth away from casino shareholders and to ourselves. That is also true for burglars, and may be the reason for opprobrium from some quarters. Our day jobs are generally positive sum, meaning that we increase wealth rather than just transferring it. Nevertheless, as AM said, once you move some resources your way you can be as philanthropic as you want. And playing, for me at least, is REALLY FUN.

 

[Billy C1]

I slept good

What we have here is a prime example of the casino winning the propaganda war and convincing the majority of the public that AP's are cheats and criminals.

In essence we are in many peoples eyes, low-lifes.

All of the above is very disturbing.

Maybe we can do something to change that myth,,,like I am sure the Robin Hood gent is doing in his own way.

CP

I believe you're quite right CP. Not long ago, at my closest "store", I jokingly told the PB that I cheat. His response was "I know you do" and I don't think that he was joking.
He's known for some time that I count and I actually think he regards that as cheating. This happens to be a Native American casino but I think that most all stores try to convince their pit people that counters are cheaters.
For the most part, I'm an ethical and honest person but I DID NOT lose any sleep over that incident. Why would I?
I don't consider some methods of AP to be ethical but counting certainly IS!

BillyC1

 

[bjcount]

Balancing the scales

Trump files for bankruptcy protection for his casino operation every decade.

He deals drugs, the legal kind. He pumps his guest with unlimited quantities of alchohol with one hand and takes their money with the other.

The few counters who make a very tiny dent in his hold are blamed for his demise.

Meanwhile he walks away from his debts and obligations while suppliers, contractors, and creditors get stuck holding the bag.

and then he starts the process all over again....

so tell me .... who's lining who's pockets with cash??

the few counters or Trump himself?

Business is business...

and how does it not contribute to society? The play of the masses is creating jobs for those 1,000's of dealers, waitresses, managers, executives, etc.. etc.... who are being paid to do a job. Hey, but what the heck do I know. As long as I can go and get a pay check every week from one of those stores.. for which I have to work hard to get paid.. they can call me anything they want.

JMO


BJC

 

[21forme]

Is the stock market any different?
It's another rigged game controlled by insiders.

 

[aslan]

Morally wrong...absolutely not. The lesser of goods...perhaps so, perhaps not. If you are a religious person, you might want to explore what God wants of your life. If you are not religious, you might want to explore whether there are better ways for you to live your life. Neither is to say that what you are doing is in any way wrong. In the final analysis it's a question of what is the best way for you to live out your life; i.e., what gives you the best +EV, and I'm not talking dollars, although that may play into it.

 

[MeWin$]

Here's

Here's a scenario: she wants him to stop playing BJ for whatever reason, less time with her, uneducated on the winning vs losing thing, wants him to join the family business, etc. etc. and just made up some lie to get him to stop.

Some girls maniulate like this all the time, just food for thought.

PS my buddy had a girlfriend who made up all kind of BS to not do what she didnt want to do, including no doggystyle sex because "it hurt her back"

 

[Cardcounter]

I always thought that being a gambler would be perfect cover for being a drug dealer. It would be the perfect way to launder money. Plus it would be the perfect explaination when you get caught by the cops with a large sum of money. You just say that you are gambler show them player's cards and they let you go. Plus when you make large cash deposits in the bank you can say that you just won the money gambling. You report some of your winnings to the IRS so they don't bust you as well. If you watch high stakes poker on tv they have a tremendous amount of cash on them at the table. I'm surprised that we don't hear of these guys getting robbed more often. If I was going to rob somebody robbing these guys outside of a casino would be on top of my list.

 

[SWFL Blackjack]

The morally wrong aspect may be because the money you win is money that is lost by people with gambling addictions. I see too many degenerate gamblers at the tables I play at when I play overnight. I see some of the same people playing till they lose, using a progression, flat betting, or (my favorite) varying their bets randomly not based on the count, and buying in for more after losing. They also make stupid plays like doubling down hard 13 or a pair of aces, splitting tens when the count is low, standing on a soft 16 (it's a SIX!!!), even hitting a hard 17. But then again I act like a degenerate gambler to blend in, looking like I'm losing most of my sessions by ratholing and playing till I "lose" if I win my big bets.

It amazes me how one can think that card counting is morally wrong. If I had to choose, I would say poker is morally wrong before card counting. The argument that you take the money other players have lost is ludicrous. If counters didn’t take the money, the stockholders and executives of the casino would. If you were to study the stock market, and put your money into Berkshire Hathaway stock, would it be morally wrong to enjoy the gains from such an investment? People have a natural psychological attraction to gambling, and casinos exploit this to the fullest legal extent. How can it be wrong that a few of the players know how to use their brains to beat a game?

As far as not contributing to society, I understand this aspect, however, isn’t the money made in blackjack just as green as the money made at a real job? Poker players use their skills to take money from other players, and blackjack players use their skills to take money from a casino. When a gambler decides to walk into a casino, they have accepted the fact they will probably lose.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Is the stock market any different?
It's another rigged game controlled by insiders.

Theoretically the stock market provides capital for companies and allows them to produce useful goods and services. AP's remove capital from companies that provide a dubious service.

As far as being philanthropic, I can't prove that casino executives are less so than AP's. So can't say that what we do is for the good. But it certainly isn't bad. Yes a lot of the money we win was lost by compulsive gamblers, but what can we do, give our money away to compulsive gamblers so they can do it again? Our actions are neutral relative to the fate of compulsive gamblers as we can not prevent or help them.

And on that note, CG's probably play lottery more than anything else so if anyone lives in a state with a lottery and drives on the roads, they are also receiving benefit from the losses of compulsive gamblers.