Casino personel giving out faulty advice?

[Gregory]

Hello! I have been reading the forums for quite a while now and sure do appreciate all the solid advice I have picked up from the various threads. In fact, there is so much information in the threads that I have never had to start a new one to answer a question I had. However ...

Last night I was treated to what I consider bad advice from a wandering floor cop at the local indian casino. Understand that I didn't ask for his advice, it was just freely given. First off he recommended I not insure my hand against the dealers ace since the odds of the dealer having the blackjack were 1 in 5. Erm ... hmmmm? As I understand it there are 13 cards in a suit with 4 of those being tens and the other nine being other cards. Doesn't that make the odds 4 to 9 of him having a ten in the hole? Or to simplify it ... 2 to 4.5 ... or 1 to 2.25. The actual advice of not to take insurance is correct, but I find the 1 in 5 odds that he stated to be way off.

The other advice he gave me was in a condescending tone about Basic Strategy and how my hitting the hard 16 against the dealer 7 up card was incorrect play. As I understand it, I am supposed to hit the hard 16 against the dealer 7! The cop suggested I check online for a Basic Strategy chart which will give me some instruction. Erm ... I pulled out my chart and showed it to him. My chart is straight from Knock-Out Blackjack by Olaf Vancura, Ph.D. & Ken Fuchs. K-O is also my counting method ... but I didn't share that with the cop. Here's a quote from Knock-Out Blackjack:

"Some players have trouble adhering to the basic strategy. One rule in particular that many have a hard time understanding is the hitting of stiff hards. For many, it's particularly difficult to hit a hard 16. Since the player has such a great chance of busting, it's easy to balk at taking a hit, especially if the dealer has a 7 showing. The dealer's 7 is not that strong, they reason, so why risk busting. The ulterior motive, of course, is to last longer. "You stay, you play," right?
In fact, this strategy will cause them to play less overall because they increase their loss rate. It turns out that by standing with 16 vs. a 7, the player loses about .48 for every $1 wagered. On the other hand, by hitting, the loss is only .42. Now, a difference of .06 may not seem like much, but it adds up. With a $25 bet out, naking the incorrect play in this situation will cost you an average of $1.50."
Quoted from Knock-Out Blackjack, April 2004 reprint, page 32

So ... bumbling nice guy cop just dispensing invalid advice or something more sinister along the lines of a casino employee padding the evening take with intentional bad advice?

 

[LeonShuffle]

I hear bad advice from casino personnel almost every time I play. And not just from dealers but pit-bosses and floor supervisors also. Just remember:
They more than we do about casino procedures and we know more than they do about playing. You just have to bite your pride and swallow your tongue. No wait... reverse that last part.

 

[Mikeaber]

Actually, without knowing the existing composition of the deck, there is a 31% chance that the dealer will have a "face" underneath an Ace. If you are counting and have a high count, the odds increase and insurance does become a very desirable option.

As for hitting the stiffs, that has been discussed here quite a bit. Bottom line is that once again, unless you have counting in your corner to give you additional information, your best bet is going to be to hit the 15s and 16s against a dealer 7 thru Ace. I'll leave it to the Advantage Players to give you the numbers on that one.

As for the attitude of the "cop"...(he's not of course!)...he probalby just took a shine to your personality and was trying to help. There's really nothing in it for them to intentionally steer you wrong. Actually, there is little incentive for a dealer to steer you wrong though many do unintentionally do exactly that. Of the dealers I've talked to locally, most of them have picked up their truck loads of knowledge about playing blackjack from watching people at their tables play!

It is better than it used to be, but there is still a vast majority of table players who do not even know basic strategy. Unless you are using it for cover while counting, I'd stick with your strategy cards and the index numbers used with whatever counting method you employ.

 

[Randomaxe]

let me guess, this "cop" probably is 10-20 years your senior. he sounds like people i've met at tables that like to impress the youngin's with their knowledge of cards. probably from all those years of losing their money their "hard way". typically, i found that anyone on the same side of the table as me has nothing really valuable to add that i haven't read, heard, watched already. most often their info is second hand assumptions. i've even had one or two old crones accuse me of taking their cards on a stiff when they could have had 21, even though BS suggests that i hit. i just smile and tell them that there are plenty of tables to lose their money at besides the one we're at.

besides the 33% chance that the dealer has a natural with an ace showing, their is also the compounded cost of losing both insurance and your original bet if you bust or dealer hits higher than you. so, unless, you're counting both cards and tracking aces, you should never ever take insurance, even if you have a natural, despite the "surest bet you'll ever make" response from that 60 year old next to you.

 

[E-town-guy]

I work at a casino in Alberta and the atmosphere is a lot different then that in the States, especially Vegas. The pit bosses/dealers are NEVER concerned if the casino loses a lot of money, unless it is through some illegal means. Card counters are few and far between and can operate with little or no heat. With that all said dealers and even the pit boss are happy to see a player doing well and are also more than happy to offer basic strategy tips to a player. Though they might do it with good intentions they often are unaware of some or a lot of the basic strategy moves so for that reason they might give you bad advice. Some of the things I've heard are: don't split against a two; don't split against 2,3, or 7s vs. 7; NEVER split 9s; don't double against a 10 or worse yet an ace! They'll also suggest doing weird things like double with 8 or 7 in hand against a 5 or 6. The atmosphere is very likely different in your neck of the woods but just know that not all casino employees are out to get you, some just don't know any better.

 

[Gregory]

Thanks for the replies. I use the word "cop" loosely ... security guard would obviously be more appropriate in this case. Seems as everyone feels the same as I do and the guy was just dropping words of wisdom on the youngster. At 42 I'm no youngster ... but hey, the guy was well in his 60's so it's all relative. Actually my wife was the one who started me thinking that maybe something more nefarious was going on.
I really should be thankful that I'm still a newbie in their eyes, despite having taken over a thousand from them over the course of my last six visits.

 

[MadMax]

Dealer Interference

From CVBJ using the Zen count I've started standing on 3+ card hands of 16 against a dealer 10. I did this at a casino recently. The dealer hit to 21 and took all the grumbling patron's chips. While doing this, she thought it professional to tell us all that that would not have happened if someone knew how to play the cards.

:cry: I was publicly reprimanded for knowing too much! :vomit:

Max