# Choosing Games: DD vs 6D using COBJ and \$5k bankroll

#### Engali

##### Member
Hello!

I have recently started taking blackjack somewhat seriously. I spent a few months (re)learning basic strategy, the KO count, and the stuff in Dravot's Color of Blackjack. I know the basic strategy from COBJ cold and I can count 6D in just over 2min30sec.

I have started going to a casino about 1.5 hours away regularly. They have a DD game that pays 3:2 on blackjacks with a \$10 when it isn't the weekend nights. This seemed like a great game. They also have 6D games that are sometimes \$10 minimum, but often \$15. I realized the other day thatI am not so sure which game to play. Considerations:

Bankroll
I have \$5K in bankroll. I have heard the rule of thumb is to have your big bet be at most 1% of your bankroll if you want to have a relatively low RoR. This make my big bet \$50.

I have read that ball park figures suggest a 1 to 5 spread in DD makes the game beatable, whereas with a 6D deck I would need to spread to 1 to 10 minimum, if not 1 to 12 or 1 to 16. This seems to push me towards the DD game since it has \$10 minimum and I can spread to \$50 big bet (1 to 5) and that lowish spread still makes the game beatable, whereas I have heard that a 1 to 5 spread will not be able to beat the 6D game (or make it too slow to beat?). A 1 to 10 spread will mean \$10 to \$100 or \$15 to \$150 and those big bets will probably increase my RoR to an uncomfortable degree given my bankroll.

Game Rules
The game rules are not equal between the DD and 6D games (differences in bold) with house edge calculated using Wizard of Odds calculator:
DD - DD only on 9-11, H17, noRSA, noDD after splitting, re-split to 4 hands, no surrender (-.71584%)
6D - H17, noRSA, re-resplit to 4 hands, no surrender (-.63873%)

Counting Method
I have heard that the KO Count is generally not that great in one and two deck games compared to something like HiLo and that it is much better for 6D or 8D games.

So I guess my question is which game I should play and why given all of the above. It seems like my bankroll and spread are pushing me to DD, but the Game Rules and Counting Method choice are pushing me to 6D. Any insights would be greatly appreciated!

#### Meistro

##### Well-Known Member
what is the cut? you can refer to a game with no double after split as NDAS

#### Engali

##### Member
Virtually identical at their best at 75%.

I have noticed though that the pen at the DD game can be as bad as about 66%-70%. This seems to be the case earlier in the day and the pen seems to get better as it gets later, but that could just be my imagination and I probably don’t have enough data points to draw a direct relationship.

#### Engali

##### Member
Or alternatively can someone tell me my RoR for a 1 to 5 vs 1 to 10 best spread if I have a \$5k bankroll and 500 units (\$10 unit)

#### Midwest Player

##### Well-Known Member
You have less risk of ruin with double deck 1 to 5 spread.

#### Engali

##### Member
I know, but I wanted figures to compare since the DD is actually already a worse game rules wise.

Also, the DD game is constantly crowded and I get like maybe 3 or 4 hands per shoe.

#### Midwest Player

##### Well-Known Member
Engali said:
I know, but I wanted figures to compare since the DD is actually already a worse game rules wise.

Also, the DD game is constantly crowded and I get like maybe 3 or 4 hands per shoe.
It depends if you are back-counting or not. If you back count the 6 deck game you can get a lower risk of ruin. If you play-all the DD is much better.

PS. Sims done in Hi-Low

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#### Engali

##### Member
Christ I had no idea my RoR was so high. Thanks for this--really appreciated. Is this software the famed CV?

Maybe I can backcount and/or Wong out to minimize my RoR. I generally stop playing when it gets to certain RC points depending on how deep into the shoe it is (in COBJ), but I should be even more careful.

I just found a place as described above, but with great pen. At most it was like 1 deck and one time I shit you not the cut had to have been about 30 cards for a 6 deck shoe. I had to hide my surprise. I made some decent money on that game before I ran...felt some heat. Will probably return there. I have heard listening to the Gambling with an Edge podcast that Richard Munchkin thinks the 3 most important aspects to making money in blackjack is bet spread, hands/hour, and penetration. This was probably the best pen for a 6 deck game I have ever seen in my fairly short career.

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#### Dopple

##### Well-Known Member
I would think back counting would be a way of effectively increasing your spread because you are betting zero when you are watching.

#### Meistro

##### Well-Known Member
Note : 75% penetration on a double deck game is dramatically better than 75% penetration on a six deck game. But yeah, try to increase your bankroll to 10k if you can. These games aren't really that bad, because the good cuts make up for the bad rules, but you need a bigger bankroll to really take advantage of those good cuts. With your limited bank you'd really prefer a game with great rules.

#### Engali

##### Member
That's a good way of thinking about it.
Dopple said:
I would think back counting would be a way of effectively increasing your spread because you are betting zero when you are watching.

#### Engali

##### Member
Meistro said:
Note : 75% penetration on a double deck game is dramatically better than 75% penetration on a six deck game. But yeah, try to increase your bankroll to 10k if you can. These games aren't really that bad, because the good cuts make up for the bad rules, but you need a bigger bankroll to really take advantage of those good cuts. With your limited bank you'd really prefer a game with great rules.
So you think the greater advantage of 75% pen in DD compared to 75% pen in 6D overcomes the DD’s disadvantage in rules (did on 9-11, NDAS)?

#### Dopple

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks for the screenshots I appreciate the info. I should invest in the product. Let see how my funds hold up. I think I am due to win more (just kidding).

#### Titan

##### Member
in a DD game with a 1-5 spread does that mean your max bet would be a lot smaller than the six deck 1-12 spread? How can DD be much more profitable if the max bet is only 5 x unit/min bet? as compared to 12 x.

##### Well-Known Member
Titan said:
a DD game with a 1-5 spread does that mean your max bet would be a lot smaller than the six deck 1-12 spread?
Your DD max bet would probably be the same as your 6D max bet.
Once you have your max bet to suit your bankroll, you work backwords from there choosing different spreads for different games but keeping the max bet the same.
ie with a \$200 max bet, you may choose to spread for single deck \$50-\$200
Double deck \$25-\$200
Shoe games \$10-\$200

#### Titan

##### Member
Your DD max bet would probably be the same as your 6D max bet.
Once you have your max bet to suit your bankroll, you work backwords from there choosing different spreads for different games but keeping the max bet the same.
ie with a \$200 max bet, you may choose to spread for single deck \$50-\$200
Double deck \$25-\$200
Shoe games \$10-\$200
That makes a lot more sense thank you for clarifying! One more question, could you give me an example of how the DD spread would look per true count? i.e: how much is bet at each true count?

##### Well-Known Member
Titan said:
That makes a lot more sense thank you for clarifying! One more question, could you give me an example of how the DD spread would look per true count? i.e: how much is bet at each true count?
It depends on a lot of things depending on rules of the game, S17,H17. If you are playing all, wong in/out etc
One example if the game was H17 DAS
<TC2 \$25
TC2 \$50
TC3 \$100
TC4 \$150
TC5 \$200

#### Titan

##### Member
It depends on a lot of things depending on rules of the game, S17,H17. If you are playing all, wong in/out etc
One example if the game was H17 DAS
<TC2 \$25
TC2 \$50
TC3 \$100
TC4 \$150
TC5 \$200
Thanks for that! I know they're simple questions but i'm still learning all the intricacies of bet spreads. Wouldn't the 1-12 spread look almost identical since it has the same max bet? as by the time you get to TC 5 you'd also be putting out 200?