# concerning team play

#### rogue1

##### Well-Known Member
As a card counter let's say I have a 2% advantage,sometimes less.
Question: If I'm playing with just one partner and I call him in when the count is favorable what is our advantage over the house? Six deck game 1-10 spread.
thanks.

#### jetace

##### Well-Known Member
Need to know rules, DAS? LS? resplit aces? Also, how favorable when he jumps in/leaves? True count +5, +10, +2? Good Penetration?

#### rogue1

##### Well-Known Member
sorry

DAS,LS,Split Aces Once, DAT, Pen 4 1/2-5 decks, using Kiss III count.

#### jetace

##### Well-Known Member
The calculator I use doesn't include the KISS III system as an option. I could run it for KO if you wanted.

It's really not going to make much of a difference. Your risk of ruin will go down if you are having your teammate only play on high counts. It is similar to wonging, however, you'll have to combine the losses you'll receive by playing basic strategy while waiting for the count to go high(-.37).

#### Sonny

##### Well-Known Member
rogue1 said:
Question: If I'm playing with just one partner and I call him in when the count is favorable what is our advantage over the house? Six deck game 1-10 spread.
Here’s the easy part: Your advantage as the spotter is equal to the house edge, assuming you are flat betting and playing BS for every hand. If you are not playing (just backcounting and calling him in) then your advantage is 0%.

Now for the tougher part. The BP’s advantage will be based on the frequency of favorable counts and their advantages. What if you call him in at an advantage of 2%? His average advantage will be higher than 2% because he is playing all hands that are 2% or better. You would have to run a sim to find out exactly what his advantage is and how many hands he will play per hour. Then it is a simple calculation:

EV = BP’s Advantage * BP’s Action – Spotter’s Advantage * Spotter’s Action

Based on the game you mentioned, I would guess that the BP would play about 5 hands per hour at 2% or better. If you bet on any advantage of 0.5% or higher you can probably get 25 hands per hour alone or 44 hands per hour if you both backcount. I don’t know the average advantage off the top of my head but that should get you started.

Also, be aware that if you are playing at the same table (and from the same bankroll) then you will need to factor in the added variance of having both bets up at the same time. You can ignore this if you are playing at separate tables.

-Sonny-

#### rogue1

##### Well-Known Member
hello jimpenn

to tell you the truth i don't have one yet-trying to find a trustworthy and good player. right now i'm trying to get information. i'm thinking it's a good idea to keep sessions at about 60-90 minutes per Ian Andersen. what do you think?

#### RJT

##### Well-Known Member
I think it's always a good idea to keep your exposuer short!
As to the spotter having to deal with simply the house advantage, that's not completely true Sonny.
If you are going to play with a spotter as you suggest, i would assume that that spotter is going to walk away from the table once he's passed the count to the BP to find another good TC for the BP to play. This being the case, it is like inverse wonging - the spotter will only play in neutral and negative situation. This means that he will have to contend with more than the usual house advantage.
Even if the spotter was to sit at the table and play through - in my opinion a fruitless exercise as you are just going to be pulling extra money cards away from the BP - the spotter will still be at a greater disadvantage than usual as there will be an extra player every time the deck is advantageous.
Of course this disadvantage should still be irrelevant compared to the big players advantage so i guess i'm just nit picking lol.
Another thought that occurs is that the rogue1 was suggesting counting as normal and calling in another player when the deck gets advantageous - this would be no different than spreading to 2 hands when you have a good count and should only really be done in certain situation.

RJT.

#### ScottH

##### Well-Known Member
RJT said:
I think it's always a good idea to keep your exposuer short!
As to the spotter having to deal with simply the house advantage, that's not completely true Sonny.
If you are going to play with a spotter as you suggest, i would assume that that spotter is going to walk away from the table once he's passed the count to the BP to find another good TC for the BP to play. This being the case, it is like inverse wonging - the spotter will only play in neutral and negative situation. This means that he will have to contend with more than the usual house advantage.
Even if the spotter was to sit at the table and play through - in my opinion a fruitless exercise as you are just going to be pulling extra money cards away from the BP - the spotter will still be at a greater disadvantage than usual as there will be an extra player every time the deck is advantageous.
Of course this disadvantage should still be irrelevant compared to the big players advantage so i guess i'm just nit picking lol.
Another thought that occurs is that the rogue1 was suggesting counting as normal and calling in another player when the deck gets advantageous - this would be no different than spreading to 2 hands when you have a good count and should only really be done in certain situation.

RJT.
If the spotter leaves the table after the BP comes in, how does the BP know when to leave the table, what the count is, etc?

#### jetace

##### Well-Known Member
The BP is usually responsible for keeping the count once he is at the table and the spotter has indicated the TC for him.

#### ScottH

##### Well-Known Member
jetace said:
The BP is usually responsible for keeping the count once he is at the table and the spotter has indicated the TC for him.
I think I was getting terminology confused. It is the Gorilla BP that just plays and relies solely on signals for information, correct?

#### RJT

##### Well-Known Member
Yeh, the Gorilla BP does not count. He usually is drunk (or giving a really good act of being and paying no attention what-so-ever to the cards) and will just follow signals given by the spotter.
A standard BP will be passed the count by the spotter, the spotter will leave and the BP will keep the count and stay at the table as long as it's favorable.

RJT.

#### bj bob

##### Well-Known Member
BP vs. Gorilla

If the spotter leaves the table all the gorilla knows is when to get in, but not when to leave .To avoid playing during an adverse count he would need some indicator to tell hime when "the well is dry".

#### jetace

##### Well-Known Member
ScottH said:
I think I was getting terminology confused. It is the Gorilla BP that just plays and relies solely on signals for information, correct?
That is correct, a gorilla has a monkey brain. He just needs to look and act the part.

#### Quper

##### Member
It sounds as that the normal BP is mutch easier to spot while the gorilla is almost impossible since he doesn't need to stay focused, why does sutch thing as a normal BP exist if it's so mutch easier to get away with having a guy that doesn't need to count while he is playing big?

#### Sonny

##### Well-Known Member
Quper said:
...why does sutch thing as a normal BP exist if it's so mutch easier to get away with having a guy that doesn't need to count while he is playing big?
Because it is less profitable. You have a counter who is capable of playing a BP role but he is stuck calling plays for another player. Basically his skill is being wasted. It would be more profitable to have him playing at a different table instead of wasting his skill betting the minimum through every high count. You are also limiting yourself by having a GBP that relies on other teammates for his signals.

-Sonny-

#### zengrifter

##### Banned
rogue1 said:
As a card counter let's say I have a 2% advantage,sometimes less.
Question: If I'm playing with just one partner and I call him in when the count is favorable what is our advantage over the house? Six deck game 1-10 spread.
thanks.
I say.....(drum roll).... 2%.

Or were you guys thinking of over betting in those moments? zg

#### Quper

##### Member
Sonny said:
Because it is less profitable. You have a counter who is capable of playing a BP role but he is stuck calling plays for another player. Basically his skill is being wasted. It would be more profitable to have him playing at a different table instead of wasting his skill betting the minimum through every high count. You are also limiting yourself by having a GBP that relies on other teammates for his signals.

-Sonny-
Ok, that sounds reasonable. How big of a difference is it by a gorilla to be busted and a normal BP?

#### Sonny

##### Well-Known Member
Quper said:
How big of a difference is it by a gorilla to be busted and a normal BP?
If a gorilla gets busted it's not that bad. You can always train a new one to learn a few signals. Losing a real BP is much worse because they are hard to find and sometimes take 6-12 months to train. A real BP is much more valuable and much more profitable.

-Sonny-