Confused about Zen Strategies

[ltrinh]

Hi All,

First off, let me apologize for the lengthy forward but I want to make sure I give everyone all the necessary info.

I'm very new to counting and have only done it for about 2 months all together. I started off using simple plus/minus and had decent success with it at the casinos. I then moved onto advanced plus/minus and then to Uston APC. I only stuck with Uston APC for about a week and then moved onto Zen since I read that it was more powerful in shoe games. I bought Blackbelt in BJ and practiced counting down a deck of cards in less than 25 seconds using the Zen system. I've memorized the comprehensive strategy charts in the index and I'm quite good at deck estimation. Three weeks have passed now using Zen and I'm now at the level where I am practicing with Casino Verite several times a day while still counting down a deck of cards and running through the strategy charts using flashcards I made every chance I get.

So here's where I'm confused. I understand how to get the true edge and using the fraction system is pretty easy. And from what I've read, you can convert true edge to true count by multiplying the true edge value by 4. However, I compared the true edge comprehensive strategy from the appendix in BBIBJ with the Complete Zen count charts in CV and they do not all match up when I multiply the true edge value by 4. This leads me to some questions I have:

1) Why is this?
2) Are they different strategies?
3) If so, which Zen strategy is better?
4) Was rounding numbers involved thereby giving different values?
5) What is the advantage if any for true edge vs. true count?
6) If I want to create a comprehensive true edge strategy chart for CV do I just create my own tables and multiply the comprehensive true edge values from BBIBJ by 4?
7) When using a betting strategy for true edge do I still think in units or dollars? The half kelly betting charts in chapter 14 of BBIBJ show dollars.
8) What is the half kelly betting strategy for a 2000 dollar bankroll?

My goal is to practive for the next 6 months using the Zen system. During that time I will continue to build my bankroll. I estimate I will be over 2k by then. I know this isn't much, but I hope to grow it over time.

Lastly, I visited the turning stone casino yesterday. I only went there to see what kind of blackjack table games they had along with there rules. They only have 8 deck and 2 deck games. The 8 deck games are Stand all 17's, Double on splits, Double on any first two cards, cut card placed at about 2 and a half decks remaining, and no insurance. The double deck game has the same rules but you cannot double after splits and it is 50 percent penetration. I know you should avoid the 8 deck games but is the double deck game from TS worth playing?


I realize this is lengthy with a lot of questions. I appreciate anyone taking the time to read this and give me your feedback.

 

[Brock Windsor]

......And from what I've read, you can convert true edge to true count by multiplying the true edge value by 4.

Approximating: TE 0.5 = TC 2 TE 1 = TC3 TE 1.5 = TC 4 TE 2=TC5. As to others:

1) Why is this? They are somewhat different
2) Are they different strategies? See 1.
3) If so, which Zen strategy is better? too close to concern yourself
4) Was rounding numbers involved thereby giving different values? yes
5) What is the advantage if any for true edge vs. true count? TE is your % edge. TC is about 0.5% advantage per TC point
6) If I want to create a comprehensive true edge strategy chart for CV do I just create my own tables and multiply the comprehensive true edge values from BBIBJ by 4? I dont think that will work.7)
When using a betting strategy for true edge do I still think in units or dollars? The half kelly betting charts in chapter 14 of BBIBJ show dollars. Think dollars. With a True Edge of 2.5 half kelly against a typical game would have you betting 1% of your BR or $20.
8) What is the half kelly betting strategy for a 2000 dollar bankroll? Divide Snyders 10K half kelly bankroll by 5.
My goal is to practive for the next 6 months using the Zen system. During that time I will continue to build my bankroll. I estimate I will be over 2k by then. Not very likely betting half kelly without signigicant hours. Find another way to save up some money and start with at least a 10K bankroll or 5K playing full kelly.

As for game comparison use the Snyder Profit Index.

BW

 

[ltrinh]

Thanks Brock

Thanks for the replay Brock. What I meant about the 2k bankroll is that I plan on building it up using my savings from my regular job and not from playing BJ. I don't plan on playing in a real casino using Zen until I have had several more months of practice. But i'm guessing 2k might be to little. I guess i'll just have to spend a longer time practicing until I get at least 5k.

 

[zengrifter]

The 1/4TC ZEN as currently published is inferior to the 1DTC or 2DTC versions
ZEN. Recommended that you switch now.

As for your 2k you can start now (after you've relearned the correct ZEN) as
long as you keep adding that extra money to the BR whether you win or lose.

Use .70 kelly based on $4k to start. zg

 

[QFIT]

Just ignore the True Edge stuff. Use the Old Zen tables in CV and divide by full decks instead of quarter decks.

 

[rukus]

or try this if you are daring enough

Zen 2D TC indices thread

:devil:

 

[ltrinh]

Thanks Zengrifter, Qfit, and Rukus

So just to be clear, I plan on playing mostly 6 deck games since that seems to be the most prevalent in my area. Does the 1DTC and 2DTC still apply to 6 deck games? Also, no one has answered the question on wether the 2 deck game at Turning Stone is worth playing with it's 50 percent penetration and no double after splits rule?

Thanks again everyone!

 

[rukus]

So just to be clear, I plan on playing mostly 6 deck games since that seems to be the most prevalent in my area. Does the 1DTC and 2DTC still apply to 6 deck games? Also, no one has answered the question on wether the 2 deck game at Turning Stone is worth playing with it's 50 percent penetration and no double after splits rule?

Thanks again everyone!

1D or 2D TC conversion is applicable to any game as long as you are using a balanced counting system. i would guess 99% of people who use balanced systems use 1D true count, ie they divide by the number of 1-deck segments remaining. 2D TC conversion divides by the number of 2-deck segments remaining. it is a personal choice which to use, most use 1D.

as for that double deck game, it sounds like a waste of time. however the shoe games there dont sound very playable either, but i have never been and dont know much about it. if i had to guess, as long as the shoe games have mediocre pen (at least 66%), they would probably be better than the DD game as long as they had DAS. consult someone else on these games though.

 

[ltrinh]

Is this the correct 2D TC chart?

Is the non rounded chart on page 2 of the link you gave me post #16 the one you would recommend using? Or should I use post #17? Are those charts now complete and final as listed? Also, what is risk averse?

You guys are the experts here so I will commit these charts to memory based on you inputs.

Thanks again.

 

[ltrinh]

one more thing

Forgot to ask this too...

Is there an advantage to using 2D TC compared to 1D TC or is it just a preference. And is the 1D TC the complete Zen chart listed in CV?

Sorry for all the questions.

 

[standard toaster]

Forgot to ask this too...

Is there an advantage to using 2D TC compared to 1D TC or is it just a preference. And is the 1D TC the complete Zen chart listed in CV?

Sorry for all the questions.

check your inbox

 

[ltrinh]

Okay...this is what I get so far

Alright Rukus and Zengrifter,

Here's my conclusion after reading the posts from the link that Rukus gave me. I'm going to go with 2D TC using Risk Averse indexes. However I don't see a Risk Averse index spreadsheet on that post. Would anyone have those charts?

My understanding of how this strategy system works is as follows. Please correct me if I'm at all wrong with this....

The values for the Zen running count remain the same. Nothing changed there. To get the 2D TC you take the Running Count divided by remaining 2deck card segments to be played.

(Example 1)
Running count = 10
Remaining Decks = 4 which equal 2 since there are two 2deck segments left.
So the TC = 5

(Example 2)
Running count = 10
Remaining Decks = 3 which equals 1.5 since there are 1 and a half remaing 2deck segmentes left.
So the TC = 6.66

Once you get those TC's as in the example above, you then compare it to the strategy chart to determine your play.

Here's a question. If you have 1 deck left remaining, the Running count is divided by .5 since one deck is half of 2. What about a half deck remaining. Do you divide that by .25?

 

[zengrifter]

Also, no one has answered the question on wether the 2 deck game at Turning Stone is worth playing with it's 50 percent penetration and no double after splits rule?!

Yes - its playable with a large spread: 1-20 play all or 1-10 exit wonging (both with steep ramp). zg

See - Barfarkel TR Excerpt #58

Although most of these Boyd property double-deckers are pretty dire 50% pene for straight counting, The Grifter believes that by avoiding the negative situations, and then spreading without cover to optimal-sized two-spot bets in the plus counts, that he has decent EV and a good SCORE equivalent. As long as there are others at the table he sometimes doesn’t even bother with the house phone or smoking ploys, but just steps away shamelessly with no explanation. He calls it "stationary exit wonging."
​