Continuous Shuffler

mdw

Well-Known Member
#1
I was playing at the Lady Luck casino with a couple friends a few weekends ago. The pitt boss was nice enough to open a $5 dollar table. I noticed the continuous shuffler after we sat down. I explained to my friends since we are playing basic strategy, it should not affect the outcome of play. After a few hours we were each down $100. There were also other players that came and left, but no one leaving up. I tried to ask a couple simple questions, like how many decks are in there etc. The dealer said he did not know. In watching the game with more interest, it seemed like there were a lot more small cards coming out than I would normally experience. My brother split a pair of 3's and before the hand was done, 3 or more 3's came out of the machine. I also drew a 7 card 21. I don't recall that happening very often. Then I noticed the discard tray. I could not put my finger on it, but the time the dealt cards spent collecting in the tray seemed to vary as if, when some good hands came out, the cards would stay out of play longer than if they were small cards. I am a hobby player, but my gut was telling me something was up. My brother also had been feeling the same thing.

Are we nuts? I realize this is not enough to be considered a long run, but we did move to a shoe game after dinner and the results seemed to be more as expected. I won't be playing any more continuous shuffle machines, but did understand for the basic player it should be a fair game. The table rules were very favorable for the player. The other thought was since we were not seeing all of the cards, could the casino have pulled out some 10,s or aces. This was in Blackhawk Colorado. I can't believe a casino would risk their license with a rigged came. I am nuts. :eek:
 

NDN21

Well-Known Member
#2
mdw said:
I was playing at the Lady Luck casino with a couple friends a few weekends ago. The pitt boss was nice enough to open a $5 dollar table. I noticed the continuous shuffler after we sat down. I explained to my friends since we are playing basic strategy, it should not affect the outcome of play. After a few hours we were each down $100. There were also other players that came and left, but no one leaving up. I tried to ask a couple simple questions, like how many decks are in there etc. The dealer said he did not know. In watching the game with more interest, it seemed like there were a lot more small cards coming out than I would normally experience. My brother split a pair of 3's and before the hand was done, 3 or more 3's came out of the machine. I also drew a 7 card 21. I don't recall that happening very often. Then I noticed the discard tray. I could not put my finger on it, but the time the dealt cards spent collecting in the tray seemed to vary as if, when some good hands came out, the cards would stay out of play longer than if they were small cards. I am a hobby player, but my gut was telling me something was up. My brother also had been feeling the same thing.
Things like this happen all the time on the continuous shuffle game. Your gut would have served you better if it let you know to stay away from this thing rather than get suspicious about a bunch of small cards.

mdw said:
Are we nuts? I realize this is not enough to be considered a long run, but we did move to a shoe game after dinner and the results seemed to be more as expected. I won't be playing any more continuous shuffle machines, but did understand for the basic player it should be a fair game. The table rules were very favorable for the player. The other thought was since we were not seeing all of the cards, could the casino have pulled out some 10,s or aces. This was in Blackhawk Colorado. I can't believe a casino would risk their license with a rigged came. I am nuts. :eek:
A continuous shuffler is not fair to anyone but the casino, remember that. BS or not, the casino ends up with it all.

Ever heard of Spanish 21? There are alot of rules concerning doubling down that would seem to benefit the player. Thing is the casino doesn't bother to let the player know they pulled four faces out of every deck!!! Did this game have a fancy name or anything?

It would be better for a counter to play a higher min table and count than a lower min table and not count.
 

sabre

Well-Known Member
#3
NDN21 said:
Ever heard of Spanish 21? There are alot of rules concerning doubling down that would seem to benefit the player. Thing is the casino doesn't bother to let the player know they pulled four faces out of every deck!!! Did this game have a fancy name or anything?
I've never been to a single Spanish 21 table that didn't have a rule placard prominently placed on the table which clearly stated that Tens were removed from the deck. I strongly suspect that you haven't either.
 

NDN21

Well-Known Member
#4
sabre said:
I've never been to a single Spanish 21 table that didn't have a rule placard prominently placed on the table which clearly stated that Tens were removed from the deck. I strongly suspect that you haven't either.
You are totally correct. They do post the rules on each table. But that doesn't mean a player reads them.

Even if they did the player may not understand how taking a few tens out of a deck affects the game. I would imagine a great deal of players do not understand how the dealer standing or hitting on soft 17 affects the game.
 

tribute

Well-Known Member
#5
sabre said:
I've never been to a single Spanish 21 table that didn't have a rule placard prominently placed on the table which clearly stated that Tens were removed from the deck. I strongly suspect that you haven't either.
I have never played Spanish 21. Is it also a game sometimes dealt from a CSM? I never imaganied the possibility of cards being removed from the shuffler.
 
#6
Just playing basic strategy, the CSM really didn't hurt you at all. I would imagine all the thoughts running through your head about small cards and the discard rack not getting emptied back in are just your mind trying to rationalize why you guys were losing. Dealers aren't always going to put the discarded cards back in the machine at the same intervals; a lot of times they just straight up forget or are just lazy and don't put them in when they are supposed to. Judging by how the dealer didn't even know how many decks were in there, it doesn't sound like you got a particularly bright one.

CSM are actually going to help the player very slightly. The flip side of that is that because the game is going to be moving faster, your money is going to be exposed to the house advantage much more.

If they opened a table for you, it sounds like they were being nice, not trying to screw you (more than they normally do). If they had just opened the table, were you able to see them opening new decks of cards and verify them?
 
#7
Csm.

Hi MDW,
with reference to your observation about the dealer's manner of handling the discard cards, I feel that you would be better served if you focused on the cards you are dealt and the dealers card, as this is the game, not what cards are in the tray.
there is generally at least 6 decks in the CSM's that is 312 cards, 10 or 15 cards in the discard tray are not going to effect your game, any more than the cards that are on the table in front of the other players.
If you play basic strategy 100% correctly, and understand that the strategy is based on those 3 cards, and not what else is going on, otherwise every thing becomes a distraction for you, and you will lose your edge.
Elkobar.
 

mdw

Well-Known Member
#8
My basic strategy admittedly is not 100 % correct all the time. Most of the thoughts I had about the CSM game were after we were done playing and discussing our play at dinner. Thank you
 

Lonesome Gambler

Well-Known Member
#9
If the amount of cards in the discard tray seemed to vary, it's most likely due to more cards being used in rounds where many hands are made up of low cards. Rounds where you get 7-card 21s and a lot of small cards can be seen will obviously produce a larger discard pile than one where everyone is dealt pat hands. If the dealer is instructed to deal a certain amount of rounds before loading the discards back in the shuffler, this would've caused the discrepancy that you noticed.
 

Lonesome Gambler

Well-Known Member
#10
elkobar said:
If you play basic strategy 100% correctly, and understand that the strategy is based on those 3 cards, and not what else is going on, otherwise every thing becomes a distraction for you, and you will lose your edge.
I'm sure this is obvious to almost everyone here, but in case it needs repeating, you have no "edge" in this game whatsoever: the casino does. I'm sure the poster that I quoted was referring to something like mental focus and not statistical advantage, but I figured I'd just toss that in just in case.
 

mdw

Well-Known Member
#11
Yes, I am very aware that playing basic strategy is only a way to minimize losses. I never expect to win, but consider breaking even a good session. This was my first time against a continuous shuffling machine. My understanding before playing against one, was that a BS player should not be at any greater disadvantage compared to a hand shuffled shoe game or an automatic shuffler game. I did not take into account the accelerated number of hands that could be played per hour which should accelerate the money being lost. Thank you all.
 
#12
Players edge

Hi Lonesome Gambler,
yes, I meant mental edge, sorry I did not quantify that, all of your focus and discipline at the table has to be directed towards playing the game the best you can, otherwise all the distractions will wear you down.
Elkobar.
 
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