Couple questions about team play

[Juan Mirrion]

I'm hoping to turn a few of my friends into card counters so we can start a team. But first I want to make sure I understand what I'm doing and that I have enough money to make it worthwhile.

The main reason I'm looking into team play is so that I don't have to worry about altering bets. My plan is to have my friends sit at different tables and flat bet a small amount while keeping track of the count, signaling the gorilla in once the TC reaches 3 or higher. The gorilla would flat bet our maximum until the count fell back below 1, and then he would leave the table and wait for someone else to signal him in.

We would be doing this in Vegas, so I'm thinking we could casino hop if necessary to avoid detection. I have a 50k bankroll, but I really don't want my RoR any higher than 4%.

6 deck, "fair" penetration
Dealer hits soft 17
DAS
Soft Double Down
Resplitting allowed
Late Surrender
Using hi-lo counting

Any ideas what we could expect to make?

 

[FLASH1296]

Your bankroll is somewhat anemic for an old-fashioned Big Player type team.

Where are you going to find shoe games that are playable and permit mid-shoe entry ?

I'd advise you to not be so gullible — as to be influenced by some old books and Hollywood movies —

that took rather extreme dramatic liberties, to understate the case.

In the last century BJ opportunities were ubiquitous, as mid-shoe entry, better rules, deeper penetration, and weaker surveillance were the rule.

 

[sagefr0g]

I'm hoping to turn a few of my friends into card counters so we can start a team. But first I want to make sure I understand what I'm doing and that I have enough money to make it worthwhile.

The main reason I'm looking into team play is so that I don't have to worry about altering bets. My plan is to have my friends sit at different tables and flat bet a small amount while keeping track of the count, signaling the gorilla in once the TC reaches 3 or higher. The gorilla would flat bet our maximum until the count fell back below 1, and then he would leave the table and wait for someone else to signal him in.

We would be doing this in Vegas, so I'm thinking we could casino hop if necessary to avoid detection. I have a 50k bankroll, but I really don't want my RoR any higher than 4%.

6 deck, "fair" penetration
Dealer hits soft 17
DAS
Soft Double Down
Resplitting allowed
Late Surrender
Using hi-lo counting

Any ideas what we could expect to make?

you have a fifty grand bankroll, gonna risk that much money and haven't sprung for a simulator software that wont even cost you more than a hundred and sixty bucks?

 

[FLASH1296]

Sage Advice implied.

 

[The Chaperone]

It isn't 1995 anymore.

 

[Sonny]

It isn't 1995 anymore.

I was going to say 1975.

-Sonny-

 

[johnnyb]

I'm hoping to turn a few of my friends into card counters so we can start a team. But first I want to make sure I understand what I'm doing and that I have enough money to make it worthwhile.

The main reason I'm looking into team play is so that I don't have to worry about altering bets. My plan is to have my friends sit at different tables and flat bet a small amount while keeping track of the count, signaling the gorilla in once the TC reaches 3 or higher. The gorilla would flat bet our maximum until the count fell back below 1, and then he would leave the table and wait for someone else to signal him in.

We would be doing this in Vegas, so I'm thinking we could casino hop if necessary to avoid detection. I have a 50k bankroll, but I really don't want my RoR any higher than 4%.

6 deck, "fair" penetration
Dealer hits soft 17
DAS
Soft Double Down
Resplitting allowed
Late Surrender
Using hi-lo counting

Any ideas what we could expect to make?

Since the AP's on this subject are too cool to actually give advice, an amature player like myself will be glad to. About team play, be sure to choose people that you're good friends with who are a little bright. It's not necessary to have extremely intelligent people on your team, just people that can comprehend, which nowadays is not such an easy trait to come by anymore:laugh:! I play with two other close friends that I met in high school and have great chemistry with. If money management is another one of your concerns, then I would take a portion of your bankroll and split it between each player. $5,000 for each individual player to play with. I believe, if this is a $5 minimum table we are talking about, this would make your RoR surely minimal with a 1-10 bet spread, preferrably TKO. And instead of your gorilla idea, have your teammates at different tables until the count permits wonging-in, and signal each other to play at a table together. This helps increase the speed of the hands played. (I have never had any problem with three players betting in unison. Realistically, the PBs are too busy due to handling a crowded casino.) I would do this until you are comfortable with your team's playing ability, and then you could move up to a $10 minimum bet and so on...

There are casinos out there that allow mid-shoe entry so I don't exactly know what the fuss is about.

Figure out a gameplan and see if it works out!

 

[tthree]

To the OP, any serious answers would be by PM. This type of info is not going to be discussed in the open forum. If you get your posts up to 10 maybe someone will PM you. Team play goes beyond basic counting.

 

[Juan Mirrion]

I'm sure I sound like such a n00b. I only recently started taking card counting seriously. I built up a pretty decent bankroll playing poker and a few people told me I should consider BJ.

I posted this question about team play because it seems so difficult to avoid being caught playing by yourself with wide bet spreads. But now that I've read a few books on CC I understand it a bit better and the challenge of it seems exciting to me.

I originally posted to find out if my view on how team play works was realistic. Apparently not... I have a better idea now though, thanks johhnyb.

Where are you going to find shoe games that are playable and permit mid-shoe entry ?

I knew there were restrictions in many places but I guess I just assumed I would be able to find a few places that still allowed it. (The casinos where I live in California do)

you have a fifty grand bankroll, gonna risk that much money and haven't sprung for a simulator software that wont even cost you more than a hundred and sixty bucks?

I have Casino Verite, but I'm still trying to figure out the numbers that they need for the calculations (such as std. dev.) that I don't quite understand yet.

To the OP, any serious answers would be by PM. This type of info is not going to be discussed in the open forum. If you get your posts up to 10 maybe someone will PM you. Team play goes beyond basic counting.

I appreciate the insight. I look forward to posting more on the forums.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

I really don't think anyone here would consider the BP call-in approach to be sensitive, so you probably won't get any PMs about it. That said, as others have mentioned, it's not the most viable strategy these days. There have been dozens of books dealing with this strategy, and even a hit Hollywood movie!

By far the most common team play strategy for card counting teams is the Every Man For Himself (EMFH) approach. By combining bankrolls with other skilled players, you can bet larger with the same amount of risk, which increases each member's win-rate individually. You can also play better games and hit the "long run" faster. There's an added benefit of being able to work with players in other regions, so you can have access to better or different games and enjoy less exposure in one place.

If you have CVCX, start with the included sims and learn how to use the software. Hi-Lo with Ill18 and Fab4 should be included, and you'll find 6D DAS RSA Su (LS) in the drop-down menu. Set the pen to 4.5/6 (standard for the games you've mentioned in Vegas), input $50K as your bankroll, and start experimenting with spreads, while paying attention to your RoR (Risk of Ruin) and win-rate (essentially your hourly expectation). You don't need to know how to input SD and stuff like that, as the sims have already been performed for you (canned sims). Good luck!