DD - best count?

Discussion in 'Skilled Play - Card Counting, Advanced Strategies' started by AnonymousCC, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. AnonymousCC

    AnonymousCC Member

    Hey guys!

    I've been using KO for a while now and feel that I master it. Time to move forward. What is the best counting-system for this game?


    dealer hits on Soft 17 (H17), double any two cards, double after splitting allowed (DAS), no resplit aces, surrendering allowed

    What spread shall I use? 1-5?

  2. tthree

    tthree Banned

    HIOPT II wins hands down. Even without the ace side count it is the most effective but few use it without it anyway.
  3. ace_332

    ace_332 Member

    I agree
  4. AnonymousCC

    AnonymousCC Member

    What do you mean with "wins hands down"?

    I will buy Blackjack Attack next week and start to practice.

    Thank you.
  5. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member

    not sure

    Thinks halves beats hi op II, without A side count.

    Think halves is the best without A side count.
  6. AnonymousCC

    AnonymousCC Member

    I guess you definitely answered my question, but Wong Halves seems a little bit hard to me. Thanks anyway.
  7. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member


    If halves seems hard then probably best not to try an A side count. Do you use a current count? Hi lo is perfectly sound.

    If you already know a count, most likely best to stick with it.
  8. AnonymousCC

    AnonymousCC Member

    I'm using Knock-Out right now. Do you think it is good enough or is it a good idea to learn something more advanced? I have no problem with KO at all.

  9. boneuphtoner

    boneuphtoner Well-Known Member

    tthree is right. See attached for one of the most comprehensive comparisons ever.


    Although this comparison was done with the side count. I doubt it would beat Halves without the side count, but that would need to be simmed.
  10. tthree

    tthree Banned

    HIOPT II is no easier than halves. KO is adequate but relatively weak. The fewer decks the stronger the more advanced counts become. If all you play is SD and DD, I would strongly suggest a more advanced count.
  11. AnonymousCC

    AnonymousCC Member

    What does the % mean on the Y-axle? (I'm not sure you use the same terminology as our europeans for Y-axle).

    Thanks for the input. I will only play DD.
  12. Smoke8

    Smoke8 Member

    DD - Best Count

    I used KO against this game with a 1 - 8 spread for 18 month's! Got fed up with playing a break even game. An AP on this site suggested ZEN with RA Indices. I took his recomendation to heart and with practice and patience have finally started putting some cash in my pocket. I think you will find Halves to be a good system, more difficult than ZEN, and a slightly lower win rate against your game of choice. HI OPT II, another excellent system, and without "A" side count will give you about the same results as ZEN. The ZEN system was easy for me because I was used to counting with the same tags, I only had to adjust to +2 for the 4,5,6 rather than + 1 ( KO ), and -2 for the 10 and Faces vs -1 ( KO ). I will always be grateful to the AP for his willingness to share and always look for his excellent, intellagant, and most helpful postings. I also thank all of the AP's for their contributions as well. If you wish to elaborate more, feel free to PM me.
  13. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member

    not subjective

    KO, can win with this count
    Hi op II ?
    Zen ?
    Hi op II, A side count

    Probably in order weakest to strongest across all games. There is this thought halves does not do well in DD, this is not so.

    Qfit & Sch show the strength of halves.

    Only playing DD may shorten longevity, especially If you bet big or are aggressive.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
  14. tthree

    tthree Banned

    Longevity in stronger counts at smaller spreads and shorter sessions. Any of the above systems listed after KO by BJ avenger are very strong should not require a spread wide enough to bring heat (1 to 6 spread should be quite profitable) if you keep your sessions down to a couple hours at most.
  15. gothic

    gothic Well-Known Member

    For double deck, wouldn't PE be a little more important than BC? This is just me thinking in general terms and might not be hip to fact completely, but my understanding of halves is it's basically a superior Hi-Lo, which kinda sucks in PE which is important in pitch games. I'd say Hi-Opt I at least (Hi-Opt II if you can hang) would do well in shredding this double-decker; not hard to sidecount aces at all in pitch games.
  16. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member

    DD is multi deck

    Notice how BS & indices for DD are akin to multi deck? BC still dominates, even with better penetration because you want to be able to identify betting opportunities.
  17. tthree

    tthree Banned

    With a lower tolerance for spreading by the casino and a wider range and frequency of high TC in double deck PE is much more important than BC. Indices with a high correlation have a much higher increase in EV when they are exceeded than weakly correlated indices. A lot of people think your correlation doesn't change the cards so what difference does it make. This is right but it is wrong thinking. Weak correlation means you are actually making the wrong play percentage wise a lot when you use the index. Strong correlation usually has you making the right play percentage wise which means EV spikes right away rather than raises slowly. This is chips in you stack at the tables. Side counts are a great tool for bolstering your weakly correlated match ups. If all you can hope to spread is about 1 to 6, BC is of limited use. PE becomes more profitable just due to the wide range and frequency of TC in pitch games. Then the weakening importance of BC as large spreads are not tolerated compared to the increase in EV found in PE makes PE become twice as important as BC in pitch games.
  18. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member

    a sim shall lead them

    A spread of 1 to 6 I like BC
    Deep penetration I like BC
    In fact with very deep penetration halves can become numero uno!, depending on game.
    PE rises as the quality of game drops due to poor penetration or self imposed betting constraints.

    What is the hall mark of PE strength? Flat betting SD.

    The only way to know for sure is with sims. Qfit did this and showed halves as the strongest count; without side counts, across virtually all playable games including DD! Qfit simmed a 1 to 4 & 1 to 8 spread for DD

    Back to the OP
    Best count for DD?
    Hi op II with A side count
    Followed by
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  19. tthree

    tthree Banned

    PE to a counter most affects his top bets. Flat betting sims mean nothing to what PE is to a counter. I am only talking the importance of PE to pitch games. I was not trying to tie it to which count is the best other than use on with a high PE.

    PE rises as correlation becomes more important. If you need to burn 10 cards to have much affect on the right play PE is not to important. If burning a few cards is all it takes to swing a play PE is very important. For example if the first hand of DD burns 3 sevens. It has little affect on your count but greatly affects the proper decision for some key matchups that tend to be weak indices. On the other hand if you notice certain cards have not been seen after a deck is dealt this greatly affects what the correct play is. You have a big bet out and the count is +19 HIOPT II all the sevens remain after 1 deck has been played. Your hand is 14 v T. The linear counter stands as the TC is 5 over the index of +14. But a smart counter hits, the TC for the match up of 14 v T is -5 once your observation of no sevens being played is factored in. Even if 3 sevens had been seen the correct play is to hit as the matchup's TC is +13, one below the index. This is high PE at work making you money by increasing your TC correlation to the correct play. That is an example of side counting raising PE a counters best tool in pitch games.

    Weak PE counting system cost too. Let's say you are using HILO and the TC is +3 with one deck remaining. You are doubling 11 v A with the dealer having the first seen ace since the index is +1; however, the +3 is due to having 3 extra low cards used already but the three extra aces left are low cards to this match up. This makes the matchup's TC 0 which is below the index. An ace neutral count would not mistakenly double this hand. Most of the illustrious 18 have this ace problem for ace reckoned counts. The ace acts like a low card but is counted as a high card for these most important playing decisions; insurance, 16 v T, 15 v T, 12 v 3, 12 v 2, 11 v A, 16 v 9, 13 v 2, 12 v 4, 12 v 5, 12 v 6 and 13 v3. That's 12 out of 18 of the illustrious 18. An ace neutral count would weight the ace exactly right for the other 6 matchups thereby increasing the correlation over ace reckoned counts for those hands as well.
  20. Gramazeka

    Gramazeka Well-Known Member

    (Dead link: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe/message/14388)

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