Dealears ignorant about blackjack

[meteomonk]

I suppose It works out quite nicely that most dealers don't know how to count, or don't know much at all about blackjack besides the rules. From all the 30 or more dealers i've had in the three casinos i've played at i can only remember one that could count and actually told me "nice" as I raised my bet in accordance to the count. Overall however, i'm shocked by how ignorant blackjack dealers are to basic strategy. At a casino i've been playing at recently that offers LS. One dealer told me with 100% aggressive certainty that you should only surrender if you have 8,8's against a dealers 10 "because you don't want to split 8's against a 10, or bust" I said i thought there were more times you would surrender (don't want to sound to knowledgable about every rule) and why surrender two 8's but not all 16's against a 10? She denied this with absolute certainty. And later i began to find out that no dealers there really understood surrender (or didn't want to deal with players using it) and many of them were telling players blatantly incorrect basic strategy such as standing on 16 against 7 "because there are so many cards that will force him to draw again"


---Why is it that casinos don't force their employees to be more informed?

---Do they tell them specifically not to teach players perfect BS?

---Are The michigan casinos i play at just not worried about AP's, do AC casinos for example teach their dealers to count since its more important?

---Anyone else have any interesting experiences with dealer knowledge in general?

 

[callipygian]

Why is it that casinos don't force their employees to be more informed?

The real question is why wouldthey? The casino wins 2-5% off of people at blackjack when the house edge is 0.5%-1%. Why would they cut their profits by 50-90% voluntarily?

Do they tell them specifically not to teach players perfect BS?

I would guess no. I think dealers have the same knowledge of basic strategy as average patrons. The casino doesn't tell dealers to be any worse, but where the average person is, is pretty bad.

Are The michigan casinos i play at just not worried about AP's, do AC casinos for example teach their dealers to count since its more important?

From what I've read, no. The dealers have enough to worry about - people stealing chips from the casino, people stealing chips from each other, making sure people place their bets properly, recognizing hand signals, understanding commands in foreign languages, etc. Catching counters is mostly the job of the pit bosses and floor managers (and surveillance), at least in big casinos.

 

[creeping panther]

Monk

Why do you want informed dealers?

Dealers should deal, entertain, or just plain shut up.

If you must look to the dealer for advice, you are already a loser.

But I sure do get a kick out of dealers that think they know it all:laugh:

Most dealers are thinking about going home to a wife or husband they cannot stand, bill collectors knocking on the door, kids who need all kinds of attention, a stiff drink, some blow, or a dreary lonely apartment....and you think they should care about the game and people that they detest...

CP

 

[ihate17]

dealer's job is to deal

As said, he has to watch the chips, watch the bets, make the payouts, take the loses etc, counting is just not part of his job description.

The dealer you ran into who counted is a small minority and he also plays.
The bad advice they give is most often honest but wrong advice. Most dealers learn to deal in dealers school but learn how to play from those regular losers who occupy the seats they deal too.

Play in enough casinos and you will learn that the majority of pits do not count cards either and some give out terrible advice. Sure someone might have told them to watch guys who spread, hit 16 sometimes and not other times, but often their job here is to call the eye and the eye will do the counting.

Recently, I witnessed a pit who was asked for advice. The player had 2,2 vs dealer 4, and she asked the pit if the right play was to split. The pit told her it was a terrible split.

ihate17

 

[EasyRhino]

and you think they should care about the game and people that they detest...

to be fair, most dealers probalby only hate most of the players. I'm sure they sincerely like me.

It's not just blackjack. At one place a slot attendant swung by my video poker machine when I had a biggish win to check if I needed a W-2G. I didn't, but during the conversation, I learned she:

1) Didn't know the cutoff for a W-2G
2) Didn't know what my VP strategy cheatsheet was
3) Didn't understand why I held three deuces on a machine that paid a bunch of money for quad deuces
4) Didn't realize that there might be a best way to play 3 card poker.

But to be fair... it didn't hamper her job performance, because it didn't matter. It also helped that she was cute.

 

[meteomonk]

ahhh, yes that all makes sense.

I must pose a question that may be terribly obvious.

Is it implied that every set of casino surveillance personel knows how to count/has one or one employee per shift that can count/was trained in multiple signs of a card counter that couldn't easily be camoflauged?

Does casino surveillance have as much else to worry about as dealers?
or is a large part of their job intended to be watching the blackjack tables for advantage players?

Do you think there are one or many casinos in the united states with relatively uninformed surveillance staff, allowing for usually risky play or unusual longevity?


I suppose i should get the book card counter's guide to casino surveillance. Thanks again, Its great to have questions answered on something as complex as intelligent advantage playing.

 

[ccl]

when i went through dealer training a few years ago they gave us a binder with info on all the games we were learning, i believe within the first 5 pages of the binder there was a basic strategy chart for both blackjack and spanish 21 in it. we were supposed to study it, but no one did, so the advice given was usually something off the wall, but most players would just ask the floor person for their advice to get decent advice

ccl

 

[GeorgeD]

I
---Why is it that casinos don't force their employees to be more informed?

---Do they tell them specifically not to teach players perfect BS?

---Are The michigan casinos i play at just not worried about AP's, do AC casinos for example teach their dealers to count since its more important?

---Anyone else have any interesting experiences with dealer knowledge in general?

I've been Ontario casinos where dealers give usually good advice if asked, and if not sure have even seen them call a pit critter to have him check a BS card. Sometimes they throw out bad answers, but I'd say 95%. Don't know why -- is it policy or tip hustling.?

Elsewhere it seems the dealers deal lots of different games. How can they keep BS straight if they sometimes go to 3 card poker, carribian stud or whatever.

 

[EasyRhino]

Does casino surveillance have as much else to worry about as dealers?
or is a large part of their job intended to be watching the blackjack tables for advantage players?

Surveillance has a lot of truly important stuff to worry about, like monitoring of the cash handling, and looking out for outright cheats (employees and patrons).

But from a couple of interviews, it appears that guarding APs takes a lot of their time. Maybe not an effective use of it.

 

[ihate17]

No, yes, yes

ahhh, yes that all makes sense.

I must pose a question that may be terribly obvious.

Is it implied that every set of casino surveillance personel knows how to count/has one or one employee per shift that can count/was trained in multiple signs of a card counter that couldn't easily be camoflauged?

Does casino surveillance have as much else to worry about as dealers?
or is a large part of their job intended to be watching the blackjack tables for advantage players?

Do you think there are one or many casinos in the united states with relatively uninformed surveillance staff, allowing for usually risky play or unusual longevity?


I suppose i should get the book card counter's guide to casino surveillance. Thanks again, Its great to have questions answered on something as complex as intelligent advantage playing.

Not everyone who works in surviellance can count and you would be surprised at how few people actually work there. It is generally an understaffed, underpaid job. Remember though they will go to seminars to teach them and learning to count is really extremely easy, it is the winning at counting which is hard and they do not have to do that part.

Advantage play should be the least part of their job and in some casinos it actually is but many casinos worry about advantage players while the dealers and pit are stealing them blind.
Their job is to protect the assets of the casino. A dealer can steal more than an AP can win when you consider that dealer might be there 5 days a week. Cheaters and thieves are another target of the eye. There have been huge thefts made by employees and that is who they should be watching the most.
Most surviellence people just kind of watch many screens at once looking for something that is out of the ordinary and then zero in. They watch blackjack players only when something perks their interest or when called by the pit.

Yes there are, I know of several that I have played in for years. Will not mention any whos or wheres to keep that longevity going.

ihate17

 

[callipygian]

Here's a surveillance question I'll throw into this thread even if it's a little off-topic.

How long do casinos keep the tapes, presuming it's not flagged initially? For example, let's say a longtime patron gets 86'd while playing on a card - can the casino go back a few weeks to pull up a tape of the last time he/she was there for more scrutiny? A few months? A few years?

 

[21forme]

Here's a surveillance question I'll throw into this thread even if it's a little off-topic.

How long do casinos keep the tapes, presuming it's not flagged initially? For example, let's say a longtime patron gets 86'd while playing on a card - can the casino go back a few weeks to pull up a tape of the last time he/she was there for more scrutiny? A few months? A few years?

That's a very good question. When they did use tapes, it generally was 2 weeks. However, everything is digital now. I wouldn't surprised if they keep things for a LONG time now.

 

[iCountNTrack]

That's a very good question. When they did use tapes, it generally was 2 weeks. However, everything is digital now. I wouldn't surprised if they keep things for a LONG time now.

Well even if it was digital, do you know how much memory 24 hour/video recording would take keeping in mind the good video quality required. My guess at least 1 perabyte (1000 tera) of memory is used up a day by the entire casino that is a lot of memory it will add up pretty fast.

 

[callipygian]

That's a very good question. When they did use tapes, it generally was 2 weeks. However, everything is digital now. I wouldn't surprised if they keep things for a LONG time now.

When did most places on the Las Vegas Strip switch to digital? Are we talking about late 90's, early 2000's, or mid 2000's?

 

[johndoe]

Well even if it was digital, do you know how much memory 24 hour/video recording would take keeping in mind the good video quality required. My guess at least 1 perabyte (1000 tera) of memory is used up a day by the entire casino that is a lot of memory it will add up pretty fast.

I agree. The data storage requirements would be prohibitive; I doubt they keep general recordings around for very long, though they would be expected to archive anything of "serious interest" indefinitely.