Difference between a BP and Gorilla

[Dyepaintball12]

After Reading "Blackbelt in Blackjack", I have a question.

So:

BP - Gets called in by spotters, then counts on his own and varies bets/indices on count.

Gorilla - Gets called in by spotters, then receives signal from spotter at table to tell him when to vary bets/indices.

So, the Gorilla obviously can act drunk and really not pay attention to the cards, and that's his cover.

Question #1 - What is the BPs cover?

Question #2 - Why do people say BP's are alot more talented than spotters, when all they do is count just as the spotters do? Because they have to learn indices?


Thanks,

David

 

[moo321]

Honestly, I think it's just a stupid distinction the MIT teams made. If at all possible, your BP should be able to count, so your signals don't get picked off. And they definitely need to know indices. To me, it sounds more like a distinction in the type of cover: one looks like a sophisticated gambler, the other like a drunk asshole.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Well it wasn't just the MIT team. Ken Uston was the one who first wrote about it.

 

[EasyRhino]

I think with Ken, the Gorilla was especially important because sometimes they'd use guys who couldn't count.

But in Uston-language, I also got the impresstion that "BP" referred to whoever bet big, and they'd refer to the "Gorilla BP" and "Counter BP" if they needed to get specific.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

The distinction between BP's and gorillas is correct. Both techniques are obsolete except for certain unusual circumstances.

Question #1 - What is the BPs cover?

It's his scarcity at the table. He's only betting a few hands per hour, at different pits, and not varying his bet all that much. He might be playing a table max every hand.

Question #2 - Why do people say BP's are alot more talented than spotters, when all they do is count just as the spotters do? Because they have to learn indices?

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding we have a winner! In reality, all members of such a team just need to have ordinary counting skills, "ordinary" in the sense of knowing a simple count and the Illustrious-18 indices, just like most of us here. The only special talent a team member needs is passing signals, because that's something that can really get you in trouble if you get caught.

 

[Sonny]

Q: What’s the difference between a BP and a Gorilla BP?
A: About three double vodka-grapefruits.

That one's going straight to Reader's Digest!

-Sonny-

 

[Dyepaintball12]

The distinction between BP's and gorillas is correct. Both techniques are obsolete except for certain unusual circumstances.

Why are both techniques obsolete? I thought these were good team methods!

 

[mjbballar23]

Why are both techniques obsolete? I thought these were good team methods!

because casinos employees are hip to the techniques so its hard not to get caught.

 

[SystemsTrader]

Why are both techniques obsolete? I thought these were good team methods!

Both techniques are still valid, just don't stay all day in the same casino and wear out your welcome.

 

[moo321]

Why are both techniques obsolete? I thought these were good team methods!

They're good methods to play at one place for a longer time. But you shouldn't be playing at the same place for a long time.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Why are both techniques obsolete? I thought these were good team methods!

They can be used to get down very large bets, but nearly all tables that accept large action these days are no-mid-shoe, where it can't be used at all. You don't need a BP to place $500 bets. You're better off having all team members hunting down the best tables and backcounting them, and playing independently at medium stakes. The fact that there are many players playing at many tables lowers the combined standard deviation so you can play a larger betting unit with the same bankroll.

 

[zengrifter]

They can be used to get down very large bets, but nearly all tables that accept large action these days are no-mid-shoe, where it can't be used at all. You don't need a BP to place $500 bets. You're better off having all team members hunting down the best tables and backcounting them, and playing independently at medium stakes. The fact that there are many players playing at many tables lowers the combined standard deviation so you can play a larger betting unit with the same bankroll.

This is the bottomline. zg

 

[moo321]

This is the bottomline. zg

Agreed.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Casinos where I play, MI and Casino Windsor do allow Midshoe entry.

 

[SystemsTrader]

Casinos where I play, MI and Casino Windsor do allow Midshoe entry.

Yes and some of those casinos only have $200 or $300 table max.

 

[Bojack1]

BP team play is far from obsolete if used correctly. With larger units and bets there are many casinos, probably more than most will ever play at, that have table limits high enough to suffice. Even with $500 limits, it can be spread to multiple hands. And yes even in crowded casinos if you get your spotters to sit down and take up some hands and leave at the time of advantage. Don't worry about how noticeable that will look, because a good team will not keep hitting the same tables in one session. And believe me when the casinos are that crowded, you can get away with more than you realize. The fact that nobody, including spotters become a headstone makes it very difficult for anyone to get a bead on whats going on. Sessions of course aren't that long so the cover of BP team play is still to this day quite relevant.

I will say the EMFH team method works well also, but there are also limitations there as you are playing just like a counter out in the open. I was never a fan of any -E.V. cover plays to hide play, thats why I have always liked BP play as it has its cover built in. But every casino has an optimal way of playing it as a team. Its just a matter of figuring it out. There are some that will give a sim of how an EMFH team can gain a higher E.V. than a BP team, but what does that matter if you get backed off or banned.

To each his own, there are different ways of playing on a team, and if done correctly they all have their place and can work. But to say that one is obsolete when it still is highly profitable is a somewhat ignorant way of thinking.

 

[moo321]

BP team play is far from obsolete if used correctly. With larger units and bets there are many casinos, probably more than most will ever play at, that have table limits high enough to suffice. Even with $500 limits, it can be spread to multiple hands. And yes even in crowded casinos if you get your spotters to sit down and take up some hands and leave at the time of advantage. Don't worry about how noticeable that will look, because a good team will not keep hitting the same tables in one session. And believe me when the casinos are that crowded, you can get away with more than you realize. The fact that nobody, including spotters become a headstone makes it very difficult for anyone to get a bead on whats going on. Sessions of course aren't that long so the cover of BP team play is still to this day quite relevant.

I will say the EMFH team method works well also, but there are also limitations there as you are playing just like a counter out in the open. I was never a fan of any -E.V. cover plays to hide play, thats why I have always liked BP play as it has its cover built in. But every casino has an optimal way of playing it as a team. Its just a matter of figuring it out. There are some that will give a sim of how an EMFH team can gain a higher E.V. than a BP team, but what does that matter if you get backed off or banned.

To each his own, there are different ways of playing on a team, and if done correctly they all have their place and can work. But to say that one is obsolete when it still is highly profitable is a somewhat ignorant way of thinking.

It sounds like you think we're saying the BP team is obsolete because of table limits. But we're saying the BP team is obsolete because other methods are better. As a general strategy, it is obsolete. Every man for himself is much higher EV and lower variance and risk of ruin. As a way of hitting a very advantageous game for long periods of time without being detected, it still works.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

It sounds like you think we're saying the BP team is obsolete because of table limits. But we're saying the BP team is obsolete because other methods are better. As a general strategy, it is obsolete. Every man for himself is much higher EV and lower variance and risk of ruin. As a way of hitting a very advantageous game for long periods of time without being detected, it still works.

How is EMFH more +EV?

With that, you have several counters at different tables, all ramping and using indices, which could easily attract heat.

With BP, you have several different tables of spotters, not ramping at all, and then having big bets put out when you have a large edge. Plus, it would be quite hard for a casino to pick up on this if you moved around enough.

 

[EasyRhino]

EMFH is not superior from a heat perspective basically, but has other things going for it that I can think of:

- No need to assemble team
- Play can be spread across multiple shifts/casinos/states
- No missed opportunities to catch high counts
- Easier to generate more play hours
- more big bets placed in proportion to waiting bets

 

[Bojack1]

It sounds like you think we're saying the BP team is obsolete because of table limits. But we're saying the BP team is obsolete because other methods are better. As a general strategy, it is obsolete. Every man for himself is much higher EV and lower variance and risk of ruin. As a way of hitting a very advantageous game for long periods of time without being detected, it still works.

Listen, no insult intended, but I don't really care why you may think BP team play is obsolete. Its not, and I have a highly successful team that is proof of that. If you read my previous post you will see that I am not against EMFH team play, and will also use it for my team at certain casinos. But for longevity while still making good profit, we could not survive as a team without the many versions of BP team play.

I offer you this. I read all the time on this very forum about so many getting backed off or even banned. Its hard for me to relate. My team I'm sure logs more hours of play then just about anyone posting here. We also play at a significantly higher stakes level then most. Yet the last backoff came in 2001 and that was not even related to actual play. The way we play as a team has been very lucrative over the years. To think that we haven't explored other avenues of play would be ridiculous. At the same time there are certain criteria of play that must be met beyond a simulation. Being able to play at high stakes for years unmolested by the casinos is the biggest. That is what matters to us. We play for profit not for just today, but for everyday.