Does Not Surrendering 17 Hurt me much?

[socal_bj]

I play double deck w/Zen count (.36% house edge, late surrender allowed). Until lately I have been avoiding deviations that get other players to start yelling at me, not that they don't already.

I never split 10s. People freak out and accuse me of taking dealer's bust card.

Even though it's basic strategy, I have not been surrendering 17 against Dealer's Ace. Everyone freaks out "why are you surrendering 17?"

Even if I say "it's basic strategy", it still sparks debate. Debate distracts me from my counting. I'm too nice to tell people to shut the f*ck up and let me play my way.

I also never hit 17, even against an Ace. I know I should with negative counts, but I know it would cause an uproar among the floppies.

So do I hurt my win rate much by not surrendering the 17 against dealer's Ace, or hitting 17 when negative count is below Zen index threshold? If so, then I will bite the bullet and start doing it.

 

[The Chaperone]

No, but the fact that you are basing your plays around what ploppies think and say is disturbing.

 

[tthree]

You should be trying to upset the ploppies enough that they leave the table. The more perfect play upsets them the better. There are other tables they can play at where smart players don't upset the sacred flow of the cards.

 

[21forme]

I forget who on this site first said this: "There are other players at the table?"

 

[tthree]

I forget who on this site first said this: "There are other players at the table?"

I can usually rectify that situation. The problem seems to be an endless supply of new ploppies to take their place.

 

[21forme]

I can use rectify that situation. The problem seems to be an endless supply of new ploppies to take their place.

I think your missing my point (apologies if I'm missing yours). What that quote means is you should play as if you're the only one at the table. Ploppy banter should be irrelevant to your play.

 

[socal_bj]

No, but the fact that you are basing your plays around what ploppies think and say is disturbing.

I know most of you here don't like to chat with or be friendly with floppies, but I'm pretty talkative and nice to the people I play with. If you play many hours every week, it's difficult to get head to head games all the time. You have to share the table most of the time.

I play the double deck with is dealt face down (H17, DAS, resplit Aces, Late Surrender, .36% house edge) which is a great game. I like to use index play variations, so being able to see everyone's cards is a huge advantage for me.

When you are nice and friendly to those around you they gladly show you their cards and I always make sure I can see everyone's cards. I can be at third base and get the first base guy to flash me his cards. I can get other players to peep at their double down hit cards (dealt face down) before I make my play decision.

We all know how insurance bets are crucial to card counters. In double deck when it's time for insurance and the true count was +4 before the cards were dealt, how do I know that is still the case when the last card (the hole card) was dealt? Maybe a bunch of 10s already came out.

So when dealer shows Ace, I ask everyone what they have and since I'm smiley and nice, they all show me. If I see a bunch of high cards I adjust my true count quickly and know whether insurance is warranted. Believe, this technique has served me well. If floppies are good for anything they are good for showing you their cards. But if you are rude, disrespectful to them or ignore them they won't do it.

Another thing I do is to team up with floppies. I get them to demand that the dealer "drop the shoe" when the cards are bad. I don't say "the count is negative let's drop the shoe". If the count is negative and the dealer pulls 21 a couple of times, then I go "this is a terrible shoe, let's ask them to drop it."

It often works for me. Better than Wonging out and waiting for the next shuffle wasting time. No mid show re-entry in double deck.

 

[MangoJ]

We all know how insurance bets are crucial to card counters. In double deck when it's time for insurance and the true count was +4 before the cards were dealt, how do I know that is still the case when the last card (the hole card) was dealt? Maybe a bunch of 10s already came out.

Let's say it this way: You don't make the wrong decision when you don't see those cards. Of course your decision will be more effective if you see them. But you don't have to rely on them.

Second, if you play heads up you not only play a faster game, you don't have to ask for other peoples cards

 

[zengrifter]

When you are nice and friendly to those around you they gladly show you their cards and I always make sure I can see everyone's cards. I can be at third base and get the first base guy to flash me his cards. I can get other players to peep at their double down hit cards (dealt face down) before I make my play decision.

Lawrence Revere used to teach: "Show people your cards and they'll show you theirs." zg

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

"Floppies!" You don't necessarily have to piss people off to make the correct play. If you're friendly and likable at the tables, you can get away with any manner of seemingly unconventional plays. In some games, you'll need to maintain an extremely uncommon style of play that will be endlessly and mercilessly analyzed and criticizes by players, dealers and floorpersons. And even if you're able to win over 90% of everyone you encounter at the tables, there will always be civilians that will refuse to warm up to your playing style; if you can't get past that, you'll need to give up on this whole advantage gambling business.

And the aforementioned quote that 21forme referred to is from Norm/QFIT.